* [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
@ 2023-12-02 15:53 Anton Khirnov
2023-12-02 16:07 ` Paul B Mahol
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Anton Khirnov @ 2023-12-02 15:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ffmpeg-devel
Its author not only failed to add any tests, as is required by the
development rules, but continues to actively refuse to do so.
Untested decoders are worse than useless, so remove it.
---
Changelog | 2 +-
libavcodec/Makefile | 1 -
libavcodec/allcodecs.c | 1 -
libavcodec/qoadec.c | 170 -----------------------------------------
4 files changed, 1 insertion(+), 173 deletions(-)
delete mode 100644 libavcodec/qoadec.c
diff --git a/Changelog b/Changelog
index f00bc27ca4..3d3b079089 100644
--- a/Changelog
+++ b/Changelog
@@ -5,7 +5,7 @@ version <next>:
- LEAD MCMP decoder
- EVC decoding using external library libxevd
- EVC encoding using external library libxeve
-- QOA decoder and demuxer
+- QOA demuxer
- aap filter
version 6.1:
diff --git a/libavcodec/Makefile b/libavcodec/Makefile
index 748806e702..a5941d1284 100644
--- a/libavcodec/Makefile
+++ b/libavcodec/Makefile
@@ -623,7 +623,6 @@ OBJS-$(CONFIG_QCELP_DECODER) += qcelpdec.o \
OBJS-$(CONFIG_QDM2_DECODER) += qdm2.o
OBJS-$(CONFIG_QDMC_DECODER) += qdmc.o
OBJS-$(CONFIG_QDRAW_DECODER) += qdrw.o
-OBJS-$(CONFIG_QOA_DECODER) += qoadec.o
OBJS-$(CONFIG_QOI_DECODER) += qoidec.o
OBJS-$(CONFIG_QOI_ENCODER) += qoienc.o
OBJS-$(CONFIG_QPEG_DECODER) += qpeg.o
diff --git a/libavcodec/allcodecs.c b/libavcodec/allcodecs.c
index b0f004e15c..87595683f9 100644
--- a/libavcodec/allcodecs.c
+++ b/libavcodec/allcodecs.c
@@ -522,7 +522,6 @@ extern const FFCodec ff_paf_audio_decoder;
extern const FFCodec ff_qcelp_decoder;
extern const FFCodec ff_qdm2_decoder;
extern const FFCodec ff_qdmc_decoder;
-extern const FFCodec ff_qoa_decoder;
extern const FFCodec ff_ra_144_encoder;
extern const FFCodec ff_ra_144_decoder;
extern const FFCodec ff_ra_288_decoder;
diff --git a/libavcodec/qoadec.c b/libavcodec/qoadec.c
deleted file mode 100644
index 443f42a527..0000000000
--- a/libavcodec/qoadec.c
+++ /dev/null
@@ -1,170 +0,0 @@
-/*
- * QOA decoder
- *
- * This file is part of FFmpeg.
- *
- * FFmpeg is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
- * modify it under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public
- * License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either
- * version 2.1 of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
- *
- * FFmpeg is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
- * but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
- * MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU
- * Lesser General Public License for more details.
- *
- * You should have received a copy of the GNU Lesser General Public
- * License along with FFmpeg; if not, write to the Free Software
- * Foundation, Inc., 51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor, Boston, MA 02110-1301 USA
- */
-
-#include "avcodec.h"
-#include "codec_internal.h"
-#include "decode.h"
-#include "get_bits.h"
-#include "bytestream.h"
-#include "mathops.h"
-
-#define QOA_SLICE_LEN 20
-#define QOA_LMS_LEN 4
-
-typedef struct QOAChannel {
- int history[QOA_LMS_LEN];
- int weights[QOA_LMS_LEN];
-} QOAChannel;
-
-typedef struct QOAContext {
- QOAChannel ch[256];
-} QOAContext;
-
-static const int16_t qoa_dequant_tab[16][8] = {
- { 1, -1, 3, -3, 5, -5, 7, -7},
- { 5, -5, 18, -18, 32, -32, 49, -49},
- { 16, -16, 53, -53, 95, -95, 147, -147},
- { 34, -34, 113, -113, 203, -203, 315, -315},
- { 63, -63, 210, -210, 378, -378, 588, -588},
- { 104, -104, 345, -345, 621, -621, 966, -966},
- { 158, -158, 528, -528, 950, -950, 1477, -1477},
- { 228, -228, 760, -760, 1368, -1368, 2128, -2128},
- { 316, -316, 1053, -1053, 1895, -1895, 2947, -2947},
- { 422, -422, 1405, -1405, 2529, -2529, 3934, -3934},
- { 548, -548, 1828, -1828, 3290, -3290, 5117, -5117},
- { 696, -696, 2320, -2320, 4176, -4176, 6496, -6496},
- { 868, -868, 2893, -2893, 5207, -5207, 8099, -8099},
- {1064, -1064, 3548, -3548, 6386, -6386, 9933, -9933},
- {1286, -1286, 4288, -4288, 7718, -7718, 12005, -12005},
- {1536, -1536, 5120, -5120, 9216, -9216, 14336, -14336},
-};
-
-static av_cold int qoa_decode_init(AVCodecContext *avctx)
-{
- avctx->sample_fmt = AV_SAMPLE_FMT_S16;
-
- return 0;
-}
-
-static int qoa_lms_predict(QOAChannel *lms)
-{
- int prediction = 0;
- for (int i = 0; i < QOA_LMS_LEN; i++)
- prediction += lms->weights[i] * lms->history[i];
- return prediction >> 13;
-}
-
-static void qoa_lms_update(QOAChannel *lms, int sample, int residual)
-{
- int delta = residual >> 4;
- for (int i = 0; i < QOA_LMS_LEN; i++)
- lms->weights[i] += lms->history[i] < 0 ? -delta : delta;
- for (int i = 0; i < QOA_LMS_LEN-1; i++)
- lms->history[i] = lms->history[i+1];
- lms->history[QOA_LMS_LEN-1] = sample;
-}
-
-static int qoa_decode_frame(AVCodecContext *avctx, AVFrame *frame,
- int *got_frame_ptr, AVPacket *avpkt)
-{
- QOAContext *s = avctx->priv_data;
- int ret, frame_size, nb_channels, sample_rate;
- GetByteContext gb;
- int16_t *samples;
-
- bytestream2_init(&gb, avpkt->data, avpkt->size);
-
- nb_channels = bytestream2_get_byte(&gb);
- sample_rate = bytestream2_get_be24(&gb);
- if (!sample_rate || !nb_channels)
- return AVERROR_INVALIDDATA;
-
- if (nb_channels != avctx->ch_layout.nb_channels) {
- av_channel_layout_uninit(&avctx->ch_layout);
- av_channel_layout_default(&avctx->ch_layout, nb_channels);
- if ((ret = av_channel_layout_copy(&frame->ch_layout, &avctx->ch_layout)) < 0)
- return ret;
- }
-
- frame->sample_rate = avctx->sample_rate = sample_rate;
-
- frame->nb_samples = bytestream2_get_be16(&gb);
- frame_size = bytestream2_get_be16(&gb);
- if (frame_size > avpkt->size)
- return AVERROR_INVALIDDATA;
-
- if (frame_size < 8 + QOA_LMS_LEN * 4 * nb_channels +
- 8LL * frame->nb_samples * nb_channels / QOA_SLICE_LEN)
- return AVERROR_INVALIDDATA;
-
- if ((ret = ff_get_buffer(avctx, frame, 0)) < 0)
- return ret;
- samples = (int16_t *)frame->data[0];
-
- for (int ch = 0; ch < nb_channels; ch++) {
- QOAChannel *qch = &s->ch[ch];
-
- for (int n = 0; n < QOA_LMS_LEN; n++)
- qch->history[n] = sign_extend(bytestream2_get_be16u(&gb), 16);
- for (int n = 0; n < QOA_LMS_LEN; n++)
- qch->weights[n] = sign_extend(bytestream2_get_be16u(&gb), 16);
- }
-
- for (int sample_index = 0; sample_index < frame->nb_samples * nb_channels;
- sample_index += QOA_SLICE_LEN) {
- for (int ch = 0; ch < nb_channels; ch++) {
- QOAChannel *lms = &s->ch[ch];
- uint64_t slice = bytestream2_get_be64u(&gb);
- int scalefactor = (slice >> 60) & 0xf;
- int slice_start = sample_index * nb_channels + ch;
- int slice_end = av_clip(sample_index + QOA_SLICE_LEN, 0, frame->nb_samples) * nb_channels + ch;
-
- for (int si = slice_start; si < slice_end; si += nb_channels) {
- int predicted = qoa_lms_predict(lms);
- int quantized = (slice >> 57) & 0x7;
- int dequantized = qoa_dequant_tab[scalefactor][quantized];
- int reconstructed = av_clip_int16(predicted + dequantized);
-
- samples[si] = reconstructed;
- slice <<= 3;
-
- qoa_lms_update(lms, reconstructed, dequantized);
- }
- }
- }
-
- *got_frame_ptr = 1;
-
- return avpkt->size;
-}
-
-const FFCodec ff_qoa_decoder = {
- .p.name = "qoa",
- CODEC_LONG_NAME("QOA (Quite OK Audio)"),
- .p.type = AVMEDIA_TYPE_AUDIO,
- .p.id = AV_CODEC_ID_QOA,
- .priv_data_size = sizeof(QOAContext),
- .init = qoa_decode_init,
- FF_CODEC_DECODE_CB(qoa_decode_frame),
- .p.capabilities = AV_CODEC_CAP_CHANNEL_CONF |
- AV_CODEC_CAP_DR1,
- .p.sample_fmts = (const enum AVSampleFormat[]) { AV_SAMPLE_FMT_S16,
- AV_SAMPLE_FMT_NONE },
-};
--
2.42.0
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-02 15:53 [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder Anton Khirnov
@ 2023-12-02 16:07 ` Paul B Mahol
[not found] ` <42528A64-3630-4EBD-A2D2-A6A3E63709BB@cosmin.at>
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Paul B Mahol @ 2023-12-02 16:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
What a nice narrative.
Yes, remove this decoder.
And keep two sonic decoders at same time of questionable code quality,
functionality and what not.
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[parent not found: <42528A64-3630-4EBD-A2D2-A6A3E63709BB@cosmin.at>]
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
[not found] ` <42528A64-3630-4EBD-A2D2-A6A3E63709BB@cosmin.at>
@ 2023-12-02 18:19 ` Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel
2023-12-02 18:55 ` Paul B Mahol
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel @ 2023-12-02 18:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches; +Cc: Cosmin Stejerean
> On Dec 2, 2023, at 7:53 AM, Anton Khirnov <anton@khirnov.net> wrote:
>
> Its author not only failed to add any tests, as is required by the
> development rules, but continues to actively refuse to do so.
>
> Untested decoders are worse than useless, so remove it.
While I agree that decoders (among other things) need tests this seems like an unfortunate outcome from an end user perspective. There are QOA samples at https://qoaformat.org/samples/ and presumably someone else could add some tests for it if the author can't be bothered. Can we hold off on this for a couple of days? If nobody else can add a test I can try to do so but I'll need a couple of days to figure it out.
- Cosmin
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-02 18:19 ` Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel
@ 2023-12-02 18:55 ` Paul B Mahol
2023-12-04 18:57 ` Jean-Baptiste Kempf
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Paul B Mahol @ 2023-12-02 18:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches; +Cc: Cosmin Stejerean
On Sat, Dec 2, 2023 at 7:20 PM Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel <
ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org> wrote:
>
>
> > On Dec 2, 2023, at 7:53 AM, Anton Khirnov <anton@khirnov.net> wrote:
> >
> > Its author not only failed to add any tests, as is required by the
> > development rules, but continues to actively refuse to do so.
> >
> > Untested decoders are worse than useless, so remove it.
>
> While I agree that decoders (among other things) need tests this seems
> like an unfortunate outcome from an end user perspective. There are QOA
> samples at https://qoaformat.org/samples/ and presumably someone else
> could add some tests for it if the author can't be bothered. Can we hold
> off on this for a couple of days? If nobody else can add a test I can try
> to do so but I'll need a couple of days to figure it out.
>
Its not hard to add/write test, and even its easy to upload test sample to
server, but last time I did it people complained of too big samples.
So I learned my lesson.
>
> - Cosmin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org
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>
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> ffmpeg-devel-request@ffmpeg.org with subject "unsubscribe".
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-02 18:55 ` Paul B Mahol
@ 2023-12-04 18:57 ` Jean-Baptiste Kempf
0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Jean-Baptiste Kempf @ 2023-12-04 18:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Paul B Mahol, ffmpeg-devel; +Cc: Cosmin Stejerean
Hi,
On Sat, 2 Dec 2023, at 19:55, Paul B Mahol wrote:
> Its not hard to add/write test, and even its easy to upload test sample to
> server, but last time I did it people complained of too big samples.
What is too big a sample?
What's the problem with large samples?
What is the documented official limit?
jb
--
Jean-Baptiste Kempf - President
+33 672 704 734
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-02 15:53 [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder Anton Khirnov
2023-12-02 16:07 ` Paul B Mahol
[not found] ` <42528A64-3630-4EBD-A2D2-A6A3E63709BB@cosmin.at>
@ 2023-12-04 18:53 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-05 4:21 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-06 20:49 ` James Almer
3 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas George @ 2023-12-04 18:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 528 bytes --]
Anton Khirnov (12023-12-02):
> Its author not only failed to add any tests, as is required by the
> development rules, but continues to actively refuse to do so.
>
> Untested decoders are worse than useless, so remove it.
Only tested manually ≠ untested.
A code that works is better than no code at all.
We are not libav, we do not remove code just because the Great Dictator
says so. If you really really want this decoder to have a test, you can
write add it yourself.
Rejected.
--
Nicolas George
[-- Attachment #1.2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 251 bytes --]
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-04 18:53 ` Nicolas George
@ 2023-12-05 4:21 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-05 7:44 ` Nicolas George
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Vittorio Giovara @ 2023-12-05 4:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 1:53 PM Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote:
> Anton Khirnov (12023-12-02):
> > Its author not only failed to add any tests, as is required by the
> > development rules, but continues to actively refuse to do so.
> >
> > Untested decoders are worse than useless, so remove it.
>
> Only tested manually ≠ untested.
>
> A code that works is better than no code at all.
>
> We are not libav, we do not remove code just because the Great Dictator
> says so. If you really really want this decoder to have a test, you can
> write add it yourself.
>
It's almost 2024, when will you be able to drop it?
--
Vittorio
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-05 4:21 ` Vittorio Giovara
@ 2023-12-05 7:44 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-05 14:51 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-19 13:57 ` Tomas Härdin
0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas George @ 2023-12-05 7:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
Vittorio Giovara (12023-12-04):
> It's almost 2024, when will you be able to drop it?
Never. When will YOU be able to drop bickering about parts of the code
that do no harm and do not bother you?
--
Nicolas George
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-05 7:44 ` Nicolas George
@ 2023-12-05 14:51 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-05 14:59 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-19 13:57 ` Tomas Härdin
1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Vittorio Giovara @ 2023-12-05 14:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
On Tue, Dec 5, 2023 at 2:45 AM Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote:
> Vittorio Giovara (12023-12-04):
> > It's almost 2024, when will you be able to drop it?
>
> Never. When will YOU be able to drop bickering about parts of the code
> that do no harm and do not bother you?
>
I'm not bickering, we're having a discussion on a mailing list (aka the
point of having a list in the first place) -- also, having someone in one
of the largest mailing lists promoting a development model that does not
actively include testing as part of the bare minimum process to accept the
patch/review is harming the whole generation of developers.
Please stop saying nonsense, or do it with a bit more kindness without
bringing up dead projects, and I'll stop answering you.
Believe me I want this more than you do.
Cheers
--
Vittorio
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-05 14:51 ` Vittorio Giovara
@ 2023-12-05 14:59 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-05 15:42 ` Vittorio Giovara
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas George @ 2023-12-05 14:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
Vittorio Giovara (12023-12-05):
> I'm not bickering,
That is exactly what you do.
> actively include testing as part of the bare minimum process to accept the
> patch/review is harming the whole generation of developers.
I agree that Paul's attitude is utterly toxic to the project, but
Anton's attitude of removing features is way worse. At least Paul almost
only pollutes his own code.
As for harming a whole generation, it is the same vague argument used by
everybody to condemn anything they do not like, like homosexuality for
example, and that argument is always the same level of bullshit.
--
Nicolas George
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-05 14:59 ` Nicolas George
@ 2023-12-05 15:42 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-06 20:47 ` Nicolas George
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Vittorio Giovara @ 2023-12-05 15:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
On Tue, Dec 5, 2023 at 9:59 AM Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote:
> Vittorio Giovara (12023-12-05):
> > I'm not bickering,
>
> That is exactly what you do.
>
And you are not? The view must be great from that glass house
> actively include testing as part of the bare minimum process to accept the
> > patch/review is harming the whole generation of developers.
>
> I agree that Paul's attitude is utterly toxic to the project, but
> Anton's attitude of removing features is way worse. At least Paul almost
> only pollutes his own code.
>
Your attitude for "omgfeatures" is also pretty toxic, there are heaps of
literature about feature creep and how important it is to remove dead code.
> As for harming a whole generation, it is the same vague argument used by
> everybody to condemn anything they do not like, like homosexuality for
> example, and that argument is always the same level of bullshit.
>
Uhhh, but maybe I'm just misinterpreting your message, but that looks like
a very ignorant comparison.
--
Vittorio
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-05 15:42 ` Vittorio Giovara
@ 2023-12-06 20:47 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-06 20:55 ` Vittorio Giovara
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas George @ 2023-12-06 20:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2198 bytes --]
Vittorio Giovara (12023-12-05):
> Your attitude for "omgfeatures" is also pretty toxic, there are heaps of
> literature about feature creep and how important it is to remove dead code.
You should read said literature before quoting it, you would learn the
difference between more features and feature creep: creeping features
make it harder to maintain core features.
So, can you prove that this QOA decoder makes it harder to maintain the
framework of FFmpeg? No, you cannot.
> Uhhh, but maybe I'm just misinterpreting your message, but that looks like
> a very ignorant comparison.
It is not ignorant at all, you show exactly the same argument structure.
Homophobes cannot prove homosexuality causes objective and immediate
harm to anybody.
You cannot prove that Paul's code causes objective and immediate harm to
the project.
So homophobes resort to invoking a vague harm to society / youth /
whatever.
So you resort to invoking a vague harm to a generation.
You do it because you have a strong intuition that it is true.
Homophobes have a strong intuition that it is true too.
But intuition without arguments has no place in a debate, it cannot
convince anybody.
And your intuition is just as wrong as the homophobes'.
In this instance, your intuition is wrong because it applies to FFmpeg
what it knows about professional projects — open or closed source —
whereas FFmpeg is not a professional project but a Libre Software
projects whose most talented contributors work for fun.
In a professional project, the time and effort of developers is limited
and must be focused on useful things. In a project like FFmpeg, the time
and effort that talented developers invest in the project grows as they
can work on fun tasks, even when said tasks are of limited usefulness.
A sure way of killing a project like FFmpeg is to prevent people from
working on the things they find fun and try to force them to do useful
things instead, either by outright rejecting if you have the authority
or by drowning them with bickering and demands, like you did with
Michael and like you just ran Paul out.
Good job.
--
Nicolas George
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-06 20:47 ` Nicolas George
@ 2023-12-06 20:55 ` Vittorio Giovara
0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Vittorio Giovara @ 2023-12-06 20:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
I ain't reading all of that
Happy for you
Or sorry that happened
On Wed, Dec 6, 2023 at 3:47 PM Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote:
> Vittorio Giovara (12023-12-05):
> > Your attitude for "omgfeatures" is also pretty toxic, there are heaps of
> > literature about feature creep and how important it is to remove dead
> code.
>
> You should read said literature before quoting it, you would learn the
> difference between more features and feature creep: creeping features
> make it harder to maintain core features.
>
> So, can you prove that this QOA decoder makes it harder to maintain the
> framework of FFmpeg? No, you cannot.
>
> > Uhhh, but maybe I'm just misinterpreting your message, but that looks
> like
> > a very ignorant comparison.
>
> It is not ignorant at all, you show exactly the same argument structure.
>
> Homophobes cannot prove homosexuality causes objective and immediate
> harm to anybody.
>
> You cannot prove that Paul's code causes objective and immediate harm to
> the project.
>
> So homophobes resort to invoking a vague harm to society / youth /
> whatever.
>
> So you resort to invoking a vague harm to a generation.
>
> You do it because you have a strong intuition that it is true.
>
> Homophobes have a strong intuition that it is true too.
>
> But intuition without arguments has no place in a debate, it cannot
> convince anybody.
>
> And your intuition is just as wrong as the homophobes'.
>
> In this instance, your intuition is wrong because it applies to FFmpeg
> what it knows about professional projects — open or closed source —
> whereas FFmpeg is not a professional project but a Libre Software
> projects whose most talented contributors work for fun.
>
> In a professional project, the time and effort of developers is limited
> and must be focused on useful things. In a project like FFmpeg, the time
> and effort that talented developers invest in the project grows as they
> can work on fun tasks, even when said tasks are of limited usefulness.
>
> A sure way of killing a project like FFmpeg is to prevent people from
> working on the things they find fun and try to force them to do useful
> things instead, either by outright rejecting if you have the authority
> or by drowning them with bickering and demands, like you did with
> Michael and like you just ran Paul out.
>
> Good job.
>
> --
> Nicolas George
> _______________________________________________
> ffmpeg-devel mailing list
> ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org
> https://ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-devel
>
> To unsubscribe, visit link above, or email
> ffmpeg-devel-request@ffmpeg.org with subject "unsubscribe".
>
--
Vittorio
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-05 7:44 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-05 14:51 ` Vittorio Giovara
@ 2023-12-19 13:57 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-19 14:02 ` Nicolas George
1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Tomas Härdin @ 2023-12-19 13:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
tis 2023-12-05 klockan 08:44 +0100 skrev Nicolas George:
> Vittorio Giovara (12023-12-04):
> > It's almost 2024, when will you be able to drop it?
>
> Never. When will YOU be able to drop bickering about parts of the
> code
> that do no harm and do not bother you?
Technical debt concerns everyone
/Tomas
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-19 13:57 ` Tomas Härdin
@ 2023-12-19 14:02 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-20 16:57 ` Tomas Härdin
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas George @ 2023-12-19 14:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
Tomas Härdin (12023-12-19):
> Technical debt concerns everyone
There is no technical debt. There is never a technical debt from
something that can be removed at an instant notice and that some are
considering removing now.
Learn from the Dread Pirate Roberts: always put off stupid things until
the next day.
--
Nicolas George
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-19 14:02 ` Nicolas George
@ 2023-12-20 16:57 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-20 18:05 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-20 19:11 ` Michael Niedermayer
0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Tomas Härdin @ 2023-12-20 16:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
tis 2023-12-19 klockan 15:02 +0100 skrev Nicolas George:
> Tomas Härdin (12023-12-19):
> > Technical debt concerns everyone
>
> There is no technical debt. There is never a technical debt from
> something that can be removed at an instant notice and that some are
> considering removing now
I'm not even sure what this is trying to say, but every line of code
carries with it a non-zero maintenance burden
> Learn from the Dread Pirate Roberts
Brag about your criminal enterprise and get busted by cops?
/Tomas
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-20 16:57 ` Tomas Härdin
@ 2023-12-20 18:05 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-20 19:11 ` Michael Niedermayer
1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas George @ 2023-12-20 18:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 527 bytes --]
Tomas Härdin (12023-12-20):
> I'm not even sure what this is trying to say, but every line of code
> carries with it a non-zero maintenance burden
Sure, if you want. But for some parts of FFmpeg, like the one we are
discussing, the maintenance burden is so small that we wasted ten time
as much energy having this discussion. I congratulate you on an
efficient use of developers resources.
> Brag about your criminal enterprise and get busted by cops?
You do not even know the classics?
--
Nicolas George
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-20 16:57 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-20 18:05 ` Nicolas George
@ 2023-12-20 19:11 ` Michael Niedermayer
2023-12-21 19:43 ` Tomas Härdin
1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Michael Niedermayer @ 2023-12-20 19:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3070 bytes --]
On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 05:57:40PM +0100, Tomas Härdin wrote:
> tis 2023-12-19 klockan 15:02 +0100 skrev Nicolas George:
[...]
> [...] , but every line of code
> carries with it a non-zero maintenance burden
Assuming you mean with "non-zero" a "larger than zero" maintenance burden
then we can proof this to be false
First we need to define what you mean by "maintenance burden" ?
There are a few ways this could be defined
A. the absolute number of hours all developers need to spend to maintain
some sort of stable quality
B. the number of hours on average a FFmpeg developers need to spend to
maintain some sort of stable quality
(A favors 9 hours over 10 hours even if the 10 hour case has 2 devlopers
available but the 9 has only 1. While B favors the 10/2 over 9/1)
C. the number of hours of work noone really wants to do, FFmpeg developers need
to spend to maintain some sort of stable quality
(again we can do this as all or per developer)
(the idea of C is that we count work that people dont like to do with more weight)
(and there are many more ways to define it ...)
Now the sketch of a proof :)
Consider all the code related to "--help"
code related to printing the version and build. Code printing where to
send bugreports/samples.
Also all formating maybe ;)
or even some random check here or there.
The "maintenance burden" in all definitions will worsen as the code
becomes less readable, less well documented or as things related to
maintaince are removed
But its more than just this i think.
* If you remove code that some comnpany or major user needs, and who pays for
maintaince than removial of even complex and hard to maintain code can
actually be negative and similarly adding complex code can actually be
positive maintaince wise. IF it also results in additional resources
becoming available for maintaince. (this can be a developers time or
a companies money or other)
* In the same light both merging and spliting code can have an impact on
maintenance burden. For example if you have a group of developers who are
unable to work together, them spliting up in 2 forks and a 3rd merging their
work together avoiding their inability to agree can reduce burden on both
OTOH if 2 groups can join and work together the sharing of resources and such
can free up time and reduce maintaince burden
What iam trying to say is, the maintaince burden resulting from a change
is complex
In this specific case here we have a patch proposing the removial of a decoder
missing a test.
Its easy to say the burden is less when the decoder is removed
But its author recently left the project too
[...]
--
Michael GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB
Awnsering whenever a program halts or runs forever is
On a turing machine, in general impossible (turings halting problem).
On any real computer, always possible as a real computer has a finite number
of states N, and will either halt in less than N cycles or never halt.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-20 19:11 ` Michael Niedermayer
@ 2023-12-21 19:43 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-21 20:05 ` Paul B Mahol
2023-12-22 3:32 ` [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder Michael Niedermayer
0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Tomas Härdin @ 2023-12-21 19:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
ons 2023-12-20 klockan 20:11 +0100 skrev Michael Niedermayer:
> On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 05:57:40PM +0100, Tomas Härdin wrote:
> > tis 2023-12-19 klockan 15:02 +0100 skrev Nicolas George:
> [...]
> > [...] , but every line of code
> > carries with it a non-zero maintenance burden
>
> Assuming you mean with "non-zero" a "larger than zero" maintenance
> burden
>
> then we can proof this to be false
Doubt
> What iam trying to say is, the maintaince burden resulting from a
> change
> is complex
Indeed
> In this specific case here we have a patch proposing the removial of
> a decoder
> missing a test.
> Its easy to say the burden is less when the decoder is removed
> But its author recently left the project too
This is one problem. But the careless attitude to shoving more features
into the codebase is far more serious. Every line of code is a CVE
waiting to happen. Apparently this is a difficult thing to grasp for
some contributors. It's an attitude I expect only from junior
developers.
Ensuring C code is correct and safe is *hard*. I have spent time
formally verifying embedded C code for spaceflight. The lessons learned
from this has made me supremely suspicious of cowboy coding.
I have raised this issue multiple times in this project to no avail. I
do not expect things to change.
/Tomas
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-21 19:43 ` Tomas Härdin
@ 2023-12-21 20:05 ` Paul B Mahol
2023-12-21 20:31 ` Nicolas George
` (4 more replies)
2023-12-22 3:32 ` [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder Michael Niedermayer
1 sibling, 5 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Paul B Mahol @ 2023-12-21 20:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 8:43 PM Tomas Härdin <git@haerdin.se> wrote:
> ons 2023-12-20 klockan 20:11 +0100 skrev Michael Niedermayer:
> > On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 05:57:40PM +0100, Tomas Härdin wrote:
> > > tis 2023-12-19 klockan 15:02 +0100 skrev Nicolas George:
> > [...]
> > > [...] , but every line of code
> > > carries with it a non-zero maintenance burden
> >
> > Assuming you mean with "non-zero" a "larger than zero" maintenance
> > burden
> >
> > then we can proof this to be false
>
> Doubt
>
> > What iam trying to say is, the maintaince burden resulting from a
> > change
> > is complex
>
> Indeed
>
> > In this specific case here we have a patch proposing the removial of
> > a decoder
> > missing a test.
> > Its easy to say the burden is less when the decoder is removed
> > But its author recently left the project too
>
> This is one problem. But the careless attitude to shoving more features
> into the codebase is far more serious. Every line of code is a CVE
> waiting to happen. Apparently this is a difficult thing to grasp for
> some contributors. It's an attitude I expect only from junior
> developers.
>
> Ensuring C code is correct and safe is *hard*. I have spent time
> formally verifying embedded C code for spaceflight. The lessons learned
> from this has made me supremely suspicious of cowboy coding.
>
> I have raised this issue multiple times in this project to no avail. I
> do not expect things to change.
>
Say what serious feature you contributed ? - Nothing.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-21 20:05 ` Paul B Mahol
@ 2023-12-21 20:31 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-21 21:36 ` Vittorio Giovara
` (2 more replies)
2023-12-21 21:38 ` [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder Vittorio Giovara
` (3 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 3 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas George @ 2023-12-21 20:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 286 bytes --]
Paul B Mahol (12023-12-21):
> Say what serious feature you contributed ? - Nothing.
I did not want to say it, but since it is now in the open: Not nothing:
negative. His naysaying discouraged me from working further on the
built-in documentation system.
--
Nicolas George
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-21 20:31 ` Nicolas George
@ 2023-12-21 21:36 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-21 22:21 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-24 1:17 ` Michael Niedermayer
2023-12-26 13:52 ` [FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct [was: Re: [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder] Ronald S. Bultje
2 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Vittorio Giovara @ 2023-12-21 21:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 3:31 PM Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote:
> Paul B Mahol (12023-12-21):
> > Say what serious feature you contributed ? - Nothing.
>
> I did not want to say it, but since it is now in the open: Not nothing:
> negative. His naysaying discouraged me from working further on the
> built-in documentation system.
>
Oh so you know how it feels!
--
Vittorio
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-21 21:36 ` Vittorio Giovara
@ 2023-12-21 22:21 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-21 22:37 ` Vittorio Giovara
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas George @ 2023-12-21 22:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 192 bytes --]
Vittorio Giovara (12023-12-21):
> Oh so you know how it feels!
I am not surprised to see your animosity against me is stronger than
your care about the project.
--
Nicolas George
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-21 22:21 ` Nicolas George
@ 2023-12-21 22:37 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-21 22:41 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-22 0:32 ` Michael Niedermayer
0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Vittorio Giovara @ 2023-12-21 22:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 5:22 PM Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote:
> Vittorio Giovara (12023-12-21):
> > Oh so you know how it feels!
>
> I am not surprised to see your animosity against me is stronger than
> your care about the project.
>
Not sure what gave you the idea, but I have no animosity towards you and I
appreciate your technical feedback when you share it.
What surprises me is that you feel discouraged by the same treatment you
have towards others in other discussions: it's been an actual concern of
mine that your long paragraphs of empty text and sometimes toxic messages
may have discouraged many people and companies to work on the project. All
I hope is that we can all communicate better in 2024 and be able to work
together.
Fwiw I'm glad you and Paul agree on something at least, though, let's
remember, the topic is a simple "new decoders should come with tests" and
its objections seem an odd hill to die on.
Cheers
--
Vittorio
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-21 22:37 ` Vittorio Giovara
@ 2023-12-21 22:41 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-21 23:12 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-22 0:32 ` Michael Niedermayer
1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas George @ 2023-12-21 22:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
Vittorio Giovara (12023-12-21):
> Not sure what gave you the idea
Mails like this one for example. The lack of self-awareness is
hilarious.
--
Nicolas George
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-21 22:41 ` Nicolas George
@ 2023-12-21 23:12 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-21 23:14 ` Nicolas George
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Vittorio Giovara @ 2023-12-21 23:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 5:41 PM Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote:
> Vittorio Giovara (12023-12-21):
> > Not sure what gave you the idea
>
> Mails like this one for example. The lack of self-awareness is
> hilarious.
>
I agree, I hope you can work on your lack of self-awareness.
--
Vittorio
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-21 23:12 ` Vittorio Giovara
@ 2023-12-21 23:14 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-21 23:24 ` Vittorio Giovara
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas George @ 2023-12-21 23:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
Vittorio Giovara (12023-12-21):
> I agree, I hope you can work on your lack of self-awareness.
Oh, the “Ah ?… Et moi, Cyrano-Savinien-Hercule De Bergerac.” comeback.
You're really scrapping the bottom of the barrel, aren't your.
--
Nicolas George
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-21 23:14 ` Nicolas George
@ 2023-12-21 23:24 ` Vittorio Giovara
0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Vittorio Giovara @ 2023-12-21 23:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 6:14 PM Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote:
> Vittorio Giovara (12023-12-21):
> > I agree, I hope you can work on your lack of self-awareness.
>
> Oh, the “Ah ?… Et moi, Cyrano-Savinien-Hercule De Bergerac.” comeback.
> You're really scrapping the bottom of the barrel, aren't your.
>
No, I'm just pointing out the obvious, but there is none so deaf as those
who will not hear.
Anyway the offtopic has been gone long enough, no point in continuing this
dead branch of a resurrected thread.
For real, no harm feelings, thanks for this pleasant and fruitful exchange.
--
Vittorio
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-21 22:37 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-21 22:41 ` Nicolas George
@ 2023-12-22 0:32 ` Michael Niedermayer
1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Michael Niedermayer @ 2023-12-22 0:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1391 bytes --]
On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 05:37:58PM -0500, Vittorio Giovara wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 5:22 PM Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote:
>
> > Vittorio Giovara (12023-12-21):
> > > Oh so you know how it feels!
> >
> > I am not surprised to see your animosity against me is stronger than
> > your care about the project.
> >
>
> Not sure what gave you the idea, but I have no animosity towards you and I
> appreciate your technical feedback when you share it.
>
> What surprises me is that you feel discouraged by the same treatment you
> have towards others in other discussions: [...]
I think many people who feel discouraged by someones treatment, have
done similar to others.
> All
> I hope is that we can all communicate better in 2024 and be able to work
> together.
i strongly agree, i hope that too :)
I wanted to quote epictetus, but as i googled i found this, which is
a bit more elaborate
https://www.reddit.com/r/Stoicism/comments/afacdz/when_you_are_offended_at_any_mans_fault_epictetus/
maybe a good guiding principle for 2024 ?
thx
[...]
--
Michael GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB
If you fake or manipulate statistics in a paper in physics you will never
get a job again.
If you fake or manipulate statistics in a paper in medicin you will get
a job for life at the pharma industry.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-21 20:31 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-21 21:36 ` Vittorio Giovara
@ 2023-12-24 1:17 ` Michael Niedermayer
2023-12-26 13:52 ` [FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct [was: Re: [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder] Ronald S. Bultje
2 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Michael Niedermayer @ 2023-12-24 1:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1099 bytes --]
Hi Nicolas
On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 09:31:00PM +0100, Nicolas George wrote:
> Paul B Mahol (12023-12-21):
> > Say what serious feature you contributed ? - Nothing.
>
> I did not want to say it, but since it is now in the open: Not nothing:
> negative.
Just because someone attacks someone else doesnt make it ok to
join an attack/insult/...
Not only is it bad for the person being attacked (and we all have
been at the receiving end of attacks too)
But theres also the issue that companies avoid interacting with
the FFmpeg community, and avoid contributing thus because of these
threads that devolve a bit.
> His naysaying discouraged me from working further on the
> built-in documentation system.
Thats bad, what can we do about this ?
I think all developers should be able to work on any part they want to.
Of course if there are disagreements then compromise or TC decission
may be needed.
thx
[...]
--
Michael GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB
He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know. -- Lao Tsu
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* [FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct [was: Re: [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder]
2023-12-21 20:31 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-21 21:36 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-24 1:17 ` Michael Niedermayer
@ 2023-12-26 13:52 ` Ronald S. Bultje
2 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Ronald S. Bultje @ 2023-12-26 13:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
Hi Nicolas,
On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 3:31 PM Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote:
> Paul B Mahol (12023-12-21):
> > Say what serious feature you contributed ? - Nothing.
>
> I did not want to say it, but since it is now in the open: Not nothing:
> negative. His naysaying discouraged me from working further on the
> built-in documentation system.
>
The CC deems some of your statements in this thread (here: "Not nothing:
negative", and later on: "Then you need to find a different project.") to
be personal attacks, in violation of our code of conduct. The CC requests
that you stop such behaviour at once and refrain from it in the future.
Remember that the CC has the option to take away mailinglist privileges.
Unanimously signed,
The CC illuminati (Anton, James, Jean-Baptiste, Michael, Ronald)
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-21 20:05 ` Paul B Mahol
2023-12-21 20:31 ` Nicolas George
@ 2023-12-21 21:38 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-22 6:28 ` Anton Khirnov
` (2 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Vittorio Giovara @ 2023-12-21 21:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 3:05 PM Paul B Mahol <onemda@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 8:43 PM Tomas Härdin <git@haerdin.se> wrote:
>
> > ons 2023-12-20 klockan 20:11 +0100 skrev Michael Niedermayer:
> > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 05:57:40PM +0100, Tomas Härdin wrote:
> > > > tis 2023-12-19 klockan 15:02 +0100 skrev Nicolas George:
> > > [...]
> > > > [...] , but every line of code
> > > > carries with it a non-zero maintenance burden
> > >
> > > Assuming you mean with "non-zero" a "larger than zero" maintenance
> > > burden
> > >
> > > then we can proof this to be false
> >
> > Doubt
> >
> > > What iam trying to say is, the maintaince burden resulting from a
> > > change
> > > is complex
> >
> > Indeed
> >
> > > In this specific case here we have a patch proposing the removial of
> > > a decoder
> > > missing a test.
> > > Its easy to say the burden is less when the decoder is removed
> > > But its author recently left the project too
> >
> > This is one problem. But the careless attitude to shoving more features
> > into the codebase is far more serious. Every line of code is a CVE
> > waiting to happen. Apparently this is a difficult thing to grasp for
> > some contributors. It's an attitude I expect only from junior
> > developers.
> >
> > Ensuring C code is correct and safe is *hard*. I have spent time
> > formally verifying embedded C code for spaceflight. The lessons learned
> > from this has made me supremely suspicious of cowboy coding.
> >
> > I have raised this issue multiple times in this project to no avail. I
> > do not expect things to change.
> >
>
> Say what serious feature you contributed ? - Nothing.
>
Contributions to the process that makes us code better and keep higher
quality code are welcome.
Let's not fall into the trap of "no commits therefore your opinion is
invalid" way of thinking which only a fool would follow.
--
Vittorio
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-21 20:05 ` Paul B Mahol
2023-12-21 20:31 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-21 21:38 ` [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder Vittorio Giovara
@ 2023-12-22 6:28 ` Anton Khirnov
2023-12-22 9:28 ` Paul B Mahol
2023-12-22 13:09 ` James Almer
2023-12-26 22:20 ` [FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct [was: Re: [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder] Ronald S. Bultje
4 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Anton Khirnov @ 2023-12-22 6:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches, cc
Hi Paul,
Quoting Paul B Mahol (2023-12-21 21:05:18)
> Say what serious feature you contributed ? - Nothing.
this is a personal attach. Personal attacks are not allowed on this
mailing list. Please refrain from them in the future.
--
Anton Khirnov
(CC member)
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-22 6:28 ` Anton Khirnov
@ 2023-12-22 9:28 ` Paul B Mahol
0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Paul B Mahol @ 2023-12-22 9:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches; +Cc: cc
On Fri, Dec 22, 2023 at 7:28 AM Anton Khirnov <anton@khirnov.net> wrote:
> Hi Paul,
> Quoting Paul B Mahol (2023-12-21 21:05:18)
> > Say what serious feature you contributed ? - Nothing.
>
> this is a personal attach. Personal attacks are not allowed on this
> mailing list. Please refrain from them in the future.
>
Sorry to personally attach you, but best coding cowboy in current FFmpeg is
you.
>
> --
> Anton Khirnov
> (CC member)
> _______________________________________________
> ffmpeg-devel mailing list
> ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org
> https://ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-devel
>
> To unsubscribe, visit link above, or email
> ffmpeg-devel-request@ffmpeg.org with subject "unsubscribe".
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-21 20:05 ` Paul B Mahol
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2023-12-22 6:28 ` Anton Khirnov
@ 2023-12-22 13:09 ` James Almer
2023-12-24 12:10 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-26 22:20 ` [FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct [was: Re: [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder] Ronald S. Bultje
4 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: James Almer @ 2023-12-22 13:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ffmpeg-devel
On 12/21/2023 5:05 PM, Paul B Mahol wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 8:43 PM Tomas Härdin <git@haerdin.se> wrote:
>
>> ons 2023-12-20 klockan 20:11 +0100 skrev Michael Niedermayer:
>>> On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 05:57:40PM +0100, Tomas Härdin wrote:
>>>> tis 2023-12-19 klockan 15:02 +0100 skrev Nicolas George:
>>> [...]
>>>> [...] , but every line of code
>>>> carries with it a non-zero maintenance burden
>>>
>>> Assuming you mean with "non-zero" a "larger than zero" maintenance
>>> burden
>>>
>>> then we can proof this to be false
>>
>> Doubt
>>
>>> What iam trying to say is, the maintaince burden resulting from a
>>> change
>>> is complex
>>
>> Indeed
>>
>>> In this specific case here we have a patch proposing the removial of
>>> a decoder
>>> missing a test.
>>> Its easy to say the burden is less when the decoder is removed
>>> But its author recently left the project too
>>
>> This is one problem. But the careless attitude to shoving more features
>> into the codebase is far more serious. Every line of code is a CVE
>> waiting to happen. Apparently this is a difficult thing to grasp for
>> some contributors. It's an attitude I expect only from junior
>> developers.
>>
>> Ensuring C code is correct and safe is *hard*. I have spent time
>> formally verifying embedded C code for spaceflight. The lessons learned
>> from this has made me supremely suspicious of cowboy coding.
>>
>> I have raised this issue multiple times in this project to no avail. I
>> do not expect things to change.
>>
>
> Say what serious feature you contributed ? - Nothing.
First of all, this was completely uncalled for. Second, mxf support in
lavf is pretty much thanks to him.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-22 13:09 ` James Almer
@ 2023-12-24 12:10 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-24 12:12 ` Nicolas George
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Tomas Härdin @ 2023-12-24 12:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
fre 2023-12-22 klockan 10:09 -0300 skrev James Almer:
> On 12/21/2023 5:05 PM, Paul B Mahol wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 8:43 PM Tomas Härdin <git@haerdin.se>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > ons 2023-12-20 klockan 20:11 +0100 skrev Michael Niedermayer:
> > > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 05:57:40PM +0100, Tomas Härdin wrote:
> > > > > tis 2023-12-19 klockan 15:02 +0100 skrev Nicolas George:
> > > > [...]
> > > > > [...] , but every line of code
> > > > > carries with it a non-zero maintenance burden
> > > >
> > > > Assuming you mean with "non-zero" a "larger than zero"
> > > > maintenance
> > > > burden
> > > >
> > > > then we can proof this to be false
> > >
> > > Doubt
> > >
> > > > What iam trying to say is, the maintaince burden resulting from
> > > > a
> > > > change
> > > > is complex
> > >
> > > Indeed
> > >
> > > > In this specific case here we have a patch proposing the
> > > > removial of
> > > > a decoder
> > > > missing a test.
> > > > Its easy to say the burden is less when the decoder is removed
> > > > But its author recently left the project too
> > >
> > > This is one problem. But the careless attitude to shoving more
> > > features
> > > into the codebase is far more serious. Every line of code is a
> > > CVE
> > > waiting to happen. Apparently this is a difficult thing to grasp
> > > for
> > > some contributors. It's an attitude I expect only from junior
> > > developers.
> > >
> > > Ensuring C code is correct and safe is *hard*. I have spent time
> > > formally verifying embedded C code for spaceflight. The lessons
> > > learned
> > > from this has made me supremely suspicious of cowboy coding.
> > >
> > > I have raised this issue multiple times in this project to no
> > > avail. I
> > > do not expect things to change.
> > >
> >
> > Say what serious feature you contributed ? - Nothing.
>
> First of all, this was completely uncalled for. Second, mxf support
> in
> lavf is pretty much thanks to him.
I will add that Baptiste is mostly to thank for it. But I'd prefer if
it were replaced by bmxlib. This would allow concentrating MXF dev
effort on a single project. But already at the concept stage there has
been opposition to this.
/Tomas
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-24 12:10 ` Tomas Härdin
@ 2023-12-24 12:12 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-24 13:23 ` James Almer
2023-12-24 14:33 ` Tomas Härdin
0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas George @ 2023-12-24 12:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 315 bytes --]
Tomas Härdin (12023-12-24):
> But I'd prefer if it were replaced by bmxlib.
Yes, we know that you have not understood that the raison d'être of
FFmpeg is to IMPLEMENT natively all multimedia formats and protocols and
the utility code they need, not be a mere collection of wrappers.
--
Nicolas George
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-24 12:12 ` Nicolas George
@ 2023-12-24 13:23 ` James Almer
2023-12-24 14:33 ` Tomas Härdin
1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: James Almer @ 2023-12-24 13:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ffmpeg-devel
On 12/24/2023 9:12 AM, Nicolas George wrote:
> Tomas Härdin (12023-12-24):
>> But I'd prefer if it were replaced by bmxlib.
>
> Yes, we know that you have not understood that the raison d'être of
> FFmpeg is to IMPLEMENT natively all multimedia formats and protocols and
> the utility code they need, not be a mere collection of wrappers.
Can you please stop with the personal attacks? You gain nothing, and the
entire discussion just goes down the drain.
This mail should have simply been about stating that native modules are
always preferred over external dependencies.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-24 12:12 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-24 13:23 ` James Almer
@ 2023-12-24 14:33 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-24 14:47 ` Paul B Mahol
2023-12-24 15:11 ` Nicolas George
1 sibling, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Tomas Härdin @ 2023-12-24 14:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
sön 2023-12-24 klockan 13:12 +0100 skrev Nicolas George:
> Tomas Härdin (12023-12-24):
> > But I'd prefer if it were replaced by bmxlib.
>
> Yes, we know that you have not understood that the raison d'être of
> FFmpeg is to IMPLEMENT natively all multimedia formats and protocols
> and
> the utility code they need, not be a mere collection of wrappers.
Nah, NIH is bad. It is a waste of labour power. It cuts down on hammock
time.
/Tomas
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-24 14:33 ` Tomas Härdin
@ 2023-12-24 14:47 ` Paul B Mahol
2023-12-24 15:11 ` Nicolas George
1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Paul B Mahol @ 2023-12-24 14:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 3:33 PM Tomas Härdin <git@haerdin.se> wrote:
> sön 2023-12-24 klockan 13:12 +0100 skrev Nicolas George:
> > Tomas Härdin (12023-12-24):
> > > But I'd prefer if it were replaced by bmxlib.
> >
> > Yes, we know that you have not understood that the raison d'être of
> > FFmpeg is to IMPLEMENT natively all multimedia formats and protocols
> > and
> > the utility code they need, not be a mere collection of wrappers.
>
> Nah, NIH is bad. It is a waste of labour power. It cuts down on hammock
> time.
>
Yes, you are always correct, not.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-24 14:33 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-24 14:47 ` Paul B Mahol
@ 2023-12-24 15:11 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-24 17:21 ` Michael Niedermayer
1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Nicolas George @ 2023-12-24 15:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 199 bytes --]
Tomas Härdin (12023-12-24):
> Nah, NIH is bad.
Then you need to find a different project. FFmpeg exists because a
genius hacker decided to NIH a MPEG software decoder.
--
Nicolas George
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-24 15:11 ` Nicolas George
@ 2023-12-24 17:21 ` Michael Niedermayer
2023-12-24 20:55 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-24 21:07 ` Paul B Mahol
0 siblings, 2 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Michael Niedermayer @ 2023-12-24 17:21 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1159 bytes --]
On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 04:11:30PM +0100, Nicolas George wrote:
> Tomas Härdin (12023-12-24):
> > Nah, NIH is bad.
>
> Then you need to find a different project. FFmpeg exists because a
> genius hacker decided to NIH a MPEG software decoder.
Please stop attacking Tomas!
FFmpeg exists because many people, many who have different
views work together.
About MXF i agree with you and disagree with Tomas but that can be
stated in a technical way without offending anyone.
And just recently Tomas helped with jpeg2000, you can find the patches
he reviewed ...
theres absolutely no sense in this personal attack on others!
PS (off topic): if you want everyone to work on one MXF codebase, everyone is
welcome to join FFmpeg :)
thx
PS: we have christmess (and happy christmess btw to everyone)
12-24 is not holmgang ;)
[...]
--
Michael GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB
Rewriting code that is poorly written but fully understood is good.
Rewriting code that one doesnt understand is a sign that one is less smart
than the original author, trying to rewrite it will not make it better.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-24 17:21 ` Michael Niedermayer
@ 2023-12-24 20:55 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-24 21:07 ` Paul B Mahol
1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Tomas Härdin @ 2023-12-24 20:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
sön 2023-12-24 klockan 18:21 +0100 skrev Michael Niedermayer:
> On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 04:11:30PM +0100, Nicolas George wrote:
> > Tomas Härdin (12023-12-24):
> > > Nah, NIH is bad.
> >
> > Then you need to find a different project. FFmpeg exists because a
> > genius hacker decided to NIH a MPEG software decoder.
>
> Please stop attacking Tomas!
I actually find it amusing
> PS: we have christmess (and happy christmess btw to everyone)
> 12-24 is not holmgang ;)
Yesterday was Festivus! 💪
/Tomas
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-24 17:21 ` Michael Niedermayer
2023-12-24 20:55 ` Tomas Härdin
@ 2023-12-24 21:07 ` Paul B Mahol
1 sibling, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Paul B Mahol @ 2023-12-24 21:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 6:22 PM Michael Niedermayer <michael@niedermayer.cc>
wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 24, 2023 at 04:11:30PM +0100, Nicolas George wrote:
> > Tomas Härdin (12023-12-24):
> > > Nah, NIH is bad.
> >
> > Then you need to find a different project. FFmpeg exists because a
> > genius hacker decided to NIH a MPEG software decoder.
>
> Please stop attacking Tomas!
>
> FFmpeg exists because many people, many who have different
> views work together.
>
> About MXF i agree with you and disagree with Tomas but that can be
> stated in a technical way without offending anyone.
>
> And just recently Tomas helped with jpeg2000, you can find the patches
> he reviewed ...
>
> theres absolutely no sense in this personal attack on others!
>
> PS (off topic): if you want everyone to work on one MXF codebase, everyone
> is
> welcome to join FFmpeg :)
>
Merry Christmas !
>
> thx
>
> PS: we have christmess (and happy christmess btw to everyone)
> 12-24 is not holmgang ;)
>
> [...]
>
> --
> Michael GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB
>
> Rewriting code that is poorly written but fully understood is good.
> Rewriting code that one doesnt understand is a sign that one is less smart
> than the original author, trying to rewrite it will not make it better.
> _______________________________________________
> ffmpeg-devel mailing list
> ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org
> https://ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-devel
>
> To unsubscribe, visit link above, or email
> ffmpeg-devel-request@ffmpeg.org with subject "unsubscribe".
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* [FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct [was: Re: [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder]
2023-12-21 20:05 ` Paul B Mahol
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2023-12-22 13:09 ` James Almer
@ 2023-12-26 22:20 ` Ronald S. Bultje
2023-12-26 22:40 ` Paul B Mahol
4 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Ronald S. Bultje @ 2023-12-26 22:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches, Paul B Mahol
Paul,
On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 3:05 PM Paul B Mahol <onemda@gmail.com> wrote:
> Say what serious feature you contributed ? - Nothing.
>
the CC requests that you please refrain from attacking fellow FFmpeg
contributors ("what serious feature [have] you contributed? - Nothing") on
the mailinglist.
Signed unanimously,
the CC illuminati (Anton, James, Jean-Baptiste, Michael, Ronald)
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct [was: Re: [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder]
2023-12-26 22:20 ` [FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct [was: Re: [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder] Ronald S. Bultje
@ 2023-12-26 22:40 ` Paul B Mahol
2023-12-26 23:53 ` James Almer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Paul B Mahol @ 2023-12-26 22:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
On Tue, Dec 26, 2023 at 11:20 PM Ronald S. Bultje <rsbultje@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Paul,
>
> On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 3:05 PM Paul B Mahol <onemda@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Say what serious feature you contributed ? - Nothing.
> >
>
> the CC requests that you please refrain from attacking fellow FFmpeg
> contributors ("what serious feature [have] you contributed? - Nothing") on
> the mailinglist.
>
I object here to your dictatorship trolling.
Your are selectively picking what to comment and censor.
Your cowboy show is over!
>
> Signed unanimously,
> the CC illuminati (Anton, James, Jean-Baptiste, Michael, Ronald)
> _______________________________________________
> ffmpeg-devel mailing list
> ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org
> https://ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-devel
>
> To unsubscribe, visit link above, or email
> ffmpeg-devel-request@ffmpeg.org with subject "unsubscribe".
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct [was: Re: [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder]
2023-12-26 22:40 ` Paul B Mahol
@ 2023-12-26 23:53 ` James Almer
2023-12-27 8:13 ` Paul B Mahol
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: James Almer @ 2023-12-26 23:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ffmpeg-devel
On 12/26/2023 7:40 PM, Paul B Mahol wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 26, 2023 at 11:20 PM Ronald S. Bultje <rsbultje@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Paul,
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 3:05 PM Paul B Mahol <onemda@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Say what serious feature you contributed ? - Nothing.
>>>
>>
>> the CC requests that you please refrain from attacking fellow FFmpeg
>> contributors ("what serious feature [have] you contributed? - Nothing") on
>> the mailinglist.
>>
>
> I object here to your dictatorship trolling.
>
> Your are selectively picking what to comment and censor.
What did the phrase Ronald quoted add to the conversation? Do you
consider that being civil? Because pretty much no one does.
Why can't people discuss and exchange opinions without talking shit to
each other?
This ML has a very bad reputation because things like that are rampant,
so it has to stop. How will anyone want to contribute if the threat of
being shit talked for no reason is always looming?
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct [was: Re: [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder]
2023-12-26 23:53 ` James Almer
@ 2023-12-27 8:13 ` Paul B Mahol
0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Paul B Mahol @ 2023-12-27 8:13 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
On Wed, Dec 27, 2023 at 12:53 AM James Almer <jamrial@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/26/2023 7:40 PM, Paul B Mahol wrote:
> > On Tue, Dec 26, 2023 at 11:20 PM Ronald S. Bultje <rsbultje@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Paul,
> >>
> >> On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 3:05 PM Paul B Mahol <onemda@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Say what serious feature you contributed ? - Nothing.
> >>>
> >>
> >> the CC requests that you please refrain from attacking fellow FFmpeg
> >> contributors ("what serious feature [have] you contributed? - Nothing")
> on
> >> the mailinglist.
> >>
> >
> > I object here to your dictatorship trolling.
> >
> > Your are selectively picking what to comment and censor.
>
> What did the phrase Ronald quoted add to the conversation? Do you
> consider that being civil? Because pretty much no one does.
> Why can't people discuss and exchange opinions without talking shit to
> each other?
>
> This ML has a very bad reputation because things like that are rampant,
> so it has to stop. How will anyone want to contribute if the threat of
> being shit talked for no reason is always looming?
>
Talk with Thardin, cowboy coding subtle calling and triggering begin with
that entity mails.
> _______________________________________________
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> ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org
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>
> To unsubscribe, visit link above, or email
> ffmpeg-devel-request@ffmpeg.org with subject "unsubscribe".
>
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-21 19:43 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-21 20:05 ` Paul B Mahol
@ 2023-12-22 3:32 ` Michael Niedermayer
2023-12-25 17:22 ` Leo Izen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Michael Niedermayer @ 2023-12-22 3:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1429 bytes --]
On Thu, Dec 21, 2023 at 08:43:16PM +0100, Tomas Härdin wrote:
> ons 2023-12-20 klockan 20:11 +0100 skrev Michael Niedermayer:
> > On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 05:57:40PM +0100, Tomas Härdin wrote:
> > > tis 2023-12-19 klockan 15:02 +0100 skrev Nicolas George:
> > [...]
> > > [...] , but every line of code
> > > carries with it a non-zero maintenance burden
> >
> > Assuming you mean with "non-zero" a "larger than zero" maintenance
> > burden
> >
> > then we can proof this to be false
>
> Doubt
ok
i seem to have said, "we". So lets do this together :)
heres an example (code by Dave Burton, not by me)
int main(int b,char**i){long long n=B,a=I^n,r=(a/b&a)>>4,y=atoi(*++i),_=(((a^n/b)*(y>>T)|y>>S)&r)|(a^r);printf("%.8s\n",(char*)&_);}
clang -include stdio.h -include stdlib.h -Wall -Weverything -pedantic -DB=6945503773712347754LL -DI=5859838231191962459LL -DT=0 -DS=7 -o prog prog.c
try
./prog 1
./prog 2
./prog 3
...
Can you think of a way to add some lines of code to this that makes it more maintainable ?
if yes, then i think you proofed that adding code can reduce maintaince burden
thx
[...]
--
Michael GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB
Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give
it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For
even the very wise cannot see all ends. -- Gandalf
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-22 3:32 ` [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder Michael Niedermayer
@ 2023-12-25 17:22 ` Leo Izen
2023-12-26 12:58 ` Michael Niedermayer
0 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: Leo Izen @ 2023-12-25 17:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ffmpeg-devel
On 12/21/23 21:32, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
>
> Can you think of a way to add some lines of code to this that makes it more maintainable ?
>
> if yes, then i think you proofed that adding code can reduce maintaince burden
>
> thx
>
This is clearly not the point here. The point is that an in-house module
has to be maintained, and removing that module removes the maintenance
burden. An international obfuscated C contest entry isn't really on-topic.
- Leo Izen (Traneptora)
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-25 17:22 ` Leo Izen
@ 2023-12-26 12:58 ` Michael Niedermayer
0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Michael Niedermayer @ 2023-12-26 12:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1959 bytes --]
On Mon, Dec 25, 2023 at 11:22:40AM -0600, Leo Izen wrote:
> On 12/21/23 21:32, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> >
> > Can you think of a way to add some lines of code to this that makes it more maintainable ?
> >
> > if yes, then i think you proofed that adding code can reduce maintaince burden
> >
> > thx
> >
>
> This is clearly not the point here. The point is that an in-house module has
> to be maintained, and removing that module removes the maintenance burden.
> An international obfuscated C contest entry isn't really on-topic.
You snipped the whole discussion this was a reply to and argue in a different
context. The claim was:
> > > [...] , but every line of code
> > > carries with it a non-zero maintenance burden
And the text you replied to was part of sketching a proof that the
claim was false.
If you make a different claim, yes, you need a different proof.
So what is the new claim ?
"The point is that an in-house module has
to be maintained, and removing that module removes the maintenance burden."
This is true, IF you ignore that "removing that module" has lead to loss of
developers, should lead to loss of users and also a higher burden on the
end user, who then may have to compile various external dependancies
and maintain these with security updates. OR maybe the end user would
have to choose between 2 forks depending in what feature she wants.
If one, for sake of argument would say the removial of any module would
be good, then the optimum is 0 modules.
Thats clearly not optimal so that would be abusrd
So we know removial cannot always be optimal. That also means it must be
a good thing sometimes to have what you call additional "maintenance burden"
thx
[...]
--
Michael GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB
it is not once nor twice but times without number that the same ideas make
their appearance in the world. -- Aristotle
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-02 15:53 [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder Anton Khirnov
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2023-12-04 18:53 ` Nicolas George
@ 2023-12-06 20:49 ` James Almer
2023-12-07 7:17 ` Anton Khirnov
3 siblings, 1 reply; 53+ messages in thread
From: James Almer @ 2023-12-06 20:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: ffmpeg-devel
On 12/2/2023 12:53 PM, Anton Khirnov wrote:
> Its author not only failed to add any tests, as is required by the
> development rules, but continues to actively refuse to do so.
>
> Untested decoders are worse than useless, so remove it.
> ---
> Changelog | 2 +-
> libavcodec/Makefile | 1 -
> libavcodec/allcodecs.c | 1 -
> libavcodec/qoadec.c | 170 -----------------------------------------
> 4 files changed, 1 insertion(+), 173 deletions(-)
> delete mode 100644 libavcodec/qoadec.c
As there are tests now afaics, this patch can be withdrawn.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
* Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder
2023-12-06 20:49 ` James Almer
@ 2023-12-07 7:17 ` Anton Khirnov
0 siblings, 0 replies; 53+ messages in thread
From: Anton Khirnov @ 2023-12-07 7:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches
Quoting James Almer (2023-12-06 21:49:45)
> On 12/2/2023 12:53 PM, Anton Khirnov wrote:
> > Its author not only failed to add any tests, as is required by the
> > development rules, but continues to actively refuse to do so.
> >
> > Untested decoders are worse than useless, so remove it.
> > ---
> > Changelog | 2 +-
> > libavcodec/Makefile | 1 -
> > libavcodec/allcodecs.c | 1 -
> > libavcodec/qoadec.c | 170 -----------------------------------------
> > 4 files changed, 1 insertion(+), 173 deletions(-)
> > delete mode 100644 libavcodec/qoadec.c
>
> As there are tests now afaics, this patch can be withdrawn.
Of course, actually pushing it was never the point of this patch.
--
Anton Khirnov
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 53+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2023-12-27 8:13 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 53+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2023-12-02 15:53 [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder Anton Khirnov
2023-12-02 16:07 ` Paul B Mahol
[not found] ` <42528A64-3630-4EBD-A2D2-A6A3E63709BB@cosmin.at>
2023-12-02 18:19 ` Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel
2023-12-02 18:55 ` Paul B Mahol
2023-12-04 18:57 ` Jean-Baptiste Kempf
2023-12-04 18:53 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-05 4:21 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-05 7:44 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-05 14:51 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-05 14:59 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-05 15:42 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-06 20:47 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-06 20:55 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-19 13:57 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-19 14:02 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-20 16:57 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-20 18:05 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-20 19:11 ` Michael Niedermayer
2023-12-21 19:43 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-21 20:05 ` Paul B Mahol
2023-12-21 20:31 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-21 21:36 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-21 22:21 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-21 22:37 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-21 22:41 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-21 23:12 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-21 23:14 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-21 23:24 ` Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-22 0:32 ` Michael Niedermayer
2023-12-24 1:17 ` Michael Niedermayer
2023-12-26 13:52 ` [FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct [was: Re: [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder] Ronald S. Bultje
2023-12-21 21:38 ` [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder Vittorio Giovara
2023-12-22 6:28 ` Anton Khirnov
2023-12-22 9:28 ` Paul B Mahol
2023-12-22 13:09 ` James Almer
2023-12-24 12:10 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-24 12:12 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-24 13:23 ` James Almer
2023-12-24 14:33 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-24 14:47 ` Paul B Mahol
2023-12-24 15:11 ` Nicolas George
2023-12-24 17:21 ` Michael Niedermayer
2023-12-24 20:55 ` Tomas Härdin
2023-12-24 21:07 ` Paul B Mahol
2023-12-26 22:20 ` [FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct [was: Re: [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder] Ronald S. Bultje
2023-12-26 22:40 ` Paul B Mahol
2023-12-26 23:53 ` James Almer
2023-12-27 8:13 ` Paul B Mahol
2023-12-22 3:32 ` [FFmpeg-devel] [PATCH] lavc: remove the QOA decoder Michael Niedermayer
2023-12-25 17:22 ` Leo Izen
2023-12-26 12:58 ` Michael Niedermayer
2023-12-06 20:49 ` James Almer
2023-12-07 7:17 ` Anton Khirnov
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