[FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[Michael Niedermayer]

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Hi all

Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
Or something else ?

Thanks

-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

Nations do behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. 
-- Abba Eban

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[James Almer]

On 4/23/2022 1:36 PM, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> Hi all
> 
> Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
> Or something else ?
> 
> Thanks

5.0 lacks the new channel layout API, and making that an LTS will give 
projects less incentive to migrate, so IMO, 5.1 (or a newer one) should 
be the LTS.
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[Neal Gompa]

On Sat, Apr 23, 2022 at 12:40 PM James Almer <jamrial@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 4/23/2022 1:36 PM, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> > Hi all
> >
> > Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
> > Or something else ?
> >
> > Thanks
>
> 5.0 lacks the new channel layout API, and making that an LTS will give
> projects less incentive to migrate, so IMO, 5.1 (or a newer one) should
> be the LTS.

I thought 5.x was the LTS series already. Maybe I misunderstood, but I
expected that the 5.x series does not break API/ABI, so minor versions
of the 5.0 major series would be part of the same LTS and supported
for that timeframe.

At least, that was my impression when I started bringing ffmpeg into Fedora...




--
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[James Almer]

On 4/23/2022 3:08 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 23, 2022 at 12:40 PM James Almer <jamrial@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 4/23/2022 1:36 PM, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
>>> Hi all
>>>
>>> Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
>>> Or something else ?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>
>> 5.0 lacks the new channel layout API, and making that an LTS will give
>> projects less incentive to migrate, so IMO, 5.1 (or a newer one) should
>> be the LTS.
> 
> I thought 5.x was the LTS series already. Maybe I misunderstood, but I
> expected that the 5.x series does not break API/ABI, so minor versions
> of the 5.0 major series would be part of the same LTS and supported
> for that timeframe.

No 5.x release will break existing API/ABI, but all can and most likely 
will introduce new API. So if you target 5.0, you can use 5.x just fine.

As an example, 5.1 will be the first with a new channel layout API in 
lavu, which will of course live alongside the old (now marked as 
deprecated) until a major bump takes place in a couple years.

> 
> At least, that was my impression when I started bringing ffmpeg into Fedora...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 真実はいつも一つ！/ Always, there's only one truth!
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[Neal Gompa]

On Sat, Apr 23, 2022 at 2:15 PM James Almer <jamrial@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 4/23/2022 3:08 PM, Neal Gompa wrote:
> > On Sat, Apr 23, 2022 at 12:40 PM James Almer <jamrial@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 4/23/2022 1:36 PM, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> >>> Hi all
> >>>
> >>> Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
> >>> Or something else ?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks
> >>
> >> 5.0 lacks the new channel layout API, and making that an LTS will give
> >> projects less incentive to migrate, so IMO, 5.1 (or a newer one) should
> >> be the LTS.
> >
> > I thought 5.x was the LTS series already. Maybe I misunderstood, but I
> > expected that the 5.x series does not break API/ABI, so minor versions
> > of the 5.0 major series would be part of the same LTS and supported
> > for that timeframe.
>
> No 5.x release will break existing API/ABI, but all can and most likely
> will introduce new API. So if you target 5.0, you can use 5.x just fine.
>

So, that aligns with my expectations.

> As an example, 5.1 will be the first with a new channel layout API in
> lavu, which will of course live alongside the old (now marked as
> deprecated) until a major bump takes place in a couple years.
>

So then, to me, it makes sense to shift the LTS to 5.1 as part of the
LTS 5.x cycle. It gets people upgrading and satisfies people's general
expectation here (including mine).



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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[Gyan Doshi]

On 2022-04-23 10:06 pm, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> Hi all
>
> Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
> Or something else ?

A LTS release should be prospectively designated.
That way, devs can prioritze their efforts and enterprise users can plan 
a roadmap for deployment.

So, not 5.0.

Regards,
Gyan
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[Steven Liu]

> 2022年4月24日 00:36，Michael Niedermayer <michael@niedermayer.cc> 写道：
> 
> Hi all
> 
> Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
> Or something else ?

I think 5.0 or 5.1 is ok.
Because LTS is just for stable, I am looking at maillist,
There have lots of patch will change lots of code every version,
So whatever of them, I think 5.0 has removed  the main deprecated warning message, so this maybe the first LTS version.
 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> -- 
> Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB
> 
> Nations do behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives. 
> -- Abba Eban
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Thanks

Steven Liu

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[Soft Works]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ffmpeg-devel <ffmpeg-devel-bounces@ffmpeg.org> On Behalf Of
> Michael Niedermayer
> Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2022 6:36 PM
> To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches <ffmpeg-
> devel@ffmpeg.org>
> Subject: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS
> 
> Hi all
> 
> Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
> Or something else ?

@Anton - I'm wondering how your multi-threading transformations 
to ffmpeg.c would align with the release schedule?

I think an LTS release should be either before or after the
series of changes you are planning. It would be unfortunate
when 5.1 would be somewhere in the middle of those changes
and become LTS.
(as you said it could take a year in the worst case)

Thanks,
softworkz
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[Paul B Mahol]

On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 12:48 AM Soft Works <softworkz@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: ffmpeg-devel <ffmpeg-devel-bounces@ffmpeg.org> On Behalf Of
> > Michael Niedermayer
> > Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2022 6:36 PM
> > To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches <ffmpeg-
> > devel@ffmpeg.org>
> > Subject: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS
> >
> > Hi all
> >
> > Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
> > Or something else ?
>
> @Anton - I'm wondering how your multi-threading transformations
> to ffmpeg.c would align with the release schedule?
>
> I think an LTS release should be either before or after the
> series of changes you are planning. It would be unfortunate
> when 5.1 would be somewhere in the middle of those changes
> and become LTS.
> (as you said it could take a year in the worst case)
>
>
I'm still expecting info that you said to provide.



> Thanks,
> softworkz
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[Soft Works]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ffmpeg-devel <ffmpeg-devel-bounces@ffmpeg.org> On Behalf Of Paul
> B Mahol
> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2022 10:01 AM
> To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches <ffmpeg-
> devel@ffmpeg.org>
> Subject: Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS
> 
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 12:48 AM Soft Works <softworkz@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ffmpeg-devel <ffmpeg-devel-bounces@ffmpeg.org> On Behalf Of
> > > Michael Niedermayer
> > > Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2022 6:36 PM
> > > To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches <ffmpeg-
> > > devel@ffmpeg.org>
> > > Subject: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS
> > >
> > > Hi all
> > >
> > > Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
> > > Or something else ?
> >
> > @Anton - I'm wondering how your multi-threading transformations
> > to ffmpeg.c would align with the release schedule?
> >
> > I think an LTS release should be either before or after the
> > series of changes you are planning. It would be unfortunate
> > when 5.1 would be somewhere in the middle of those changes
> > and become LTS.
> > (as you said it could take a year in the worst case)
> >
> >
> I'm still expecting info that you said to provide.

That "information" is about explaining why I said that it's difficult
to debug filtering in ffmpeg. I haven't forgot about and I'll 
get to it shortly.

As I mentioned before, I'm concerned about the transitioning 
process but not opposed to the end result. My suggestion was
to retain the current code flow as an option, but nobody else
found it useful - that's ok,  I have no intentions to insist.
Besides that, from my personal pov: the faster it can be driven
to completion, the better, so there's just a "before-state"
(the current state) and a "completion state" to care about.
Having a release in-between would create an additional state
to deal with, and that's what I would find unfortunate.

softworkz

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[Jean-Baptiste Kempf]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2022, at 18:36, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
> Or something else ?

My understanding of the consensus was;
- 5.0 in Dec/Jan
- 5.1 in Jul with API additions, but no ABI/behavior breakage
- 6.0 in Dec 22 with ABI/API/behavior breakage and while 5.1 becomes LTS
- 6.1 in Jul 23...

-- 
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[Michael Niedermayer]

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On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 01:51:26PM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Kempf wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Apr 2022, at 18:36, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> > Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
> > Or something else ?
> 
> My understanding of the consensus was;
> - 5.0 in Dec/Jan
> - 5.1 in Jul with API additions, but no ABI/behavior breakage

yes


> - 6.0 in Dec 22 with ABI/API/behavior breakage and while 5.1 becomes LTS

we could give 5.1 an LTS "tag" when its released already
also thers the possibility that by december we have nothing that really
benefits from a ABI/API/behavior breakage.
If that happens people might prefer 5.2 over 6.0 i dont know.

thx

[...]
-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

Does the universe only have a finite lifespan? No, its going to go on
forever, its just that you wont like living in it. -- Hiranya Peiri

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[Jean-Baptiste Kempf]

On Mon, 25 Apr 2022, at 19:19, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 01:51:26PM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Kempf wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Apr 2022, at 18:36, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
>> > Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
>> > Or something else ?
>> 
>> My understanding of the consensus was;
>> - 5.0 in Dec/Jan
>> - 5.1 in Jul with API additions, but no ABI/behavior breakage
>
> yes

OK.

>> - 6.0 in Dec 22 with ABI/API/behavior breakage and while 5.1 becomes LTS
>
> we could give 5.1 an LTS "tag" when its released already

I would mention it, tbh.

> also thers the possibility that by december we have nothing that really
> benefits from a ABI/API/behavior breakage.
> If that happens people might prefer 5.2 over 6.0 i dont know.

I think it would be clearer to accustom people that we have one big potential change every year, at the same date.

jb

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[Michael Niedermayer]

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On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 08:04:25PM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Kempf wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022, at 19:19, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 01:51:26PM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Kempf wrote:
> >> On Sat, 23 Apr 2022, at 18:36, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> >> > Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
> >> > Or something else ?
> >> 
> >> My understanding of the consensus was;
> >> - 5.0 in Dec/Jan
> >> - 5.1 in Jul with API additions, but no ABI/behavior breakage
> >
> > yes
> 
> OK.
> 
> >> - 6.0 in Dec 22 with ABI/API/behavior breakage and while 5.1 becomes LTS
> >
> > we could give 5.1 an LTS "tag" when its released already
> 
> I would mention it, tbh.
> 
> > also thers the possibility that by december we have nothing that really
> > benefits from a ABI/API/behavior breakage.
> > If that happens people might prefer 5.2 over 6.0 i dont know.
> 
> I think it would be clearer to accustom people that we have one big potential change every year, at the same date.

thats not a bad idea. Still bumping the sonames of the libs when there is
no reason is not really nice. I dont know if we will have a reason in december

thx

[...]
-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

It is what and why we do it that matters, not just one of them.

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[Soft Works]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ffmpeg-devel <ffmpeg-devel-bounces@ffmpeg.org> On Behalf Of
> Michael Niedermayer
> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2022 8:40 PM
> To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches <ffmpeg-
> devel@ffmpeg.org>
> Subject: Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS
> 
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 08:04:25PM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Kempf wrote:
> > On Mon, 25 Apr 2022, at 19:19, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> > > On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 01:51:26PM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Kempf
> wrote:
> > >> On Sat, 23 Apr 2022, at 18:36, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> > >> > Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
> > >> > Or something else ?
> > >>
> > >> My understanding of the consensus was;
> > >> - 5.0 in Dec/Jan
> > >> - 5.1 in Jul with API additions, but no ABI/behavior breakage
> > >
> > > yes
> >
> > OK.
> >
> > >> - 6.0 in Dec 22 with ABI/API/behavior breakage and while 5.1
> becomes LTS
> > >
> > > we could give 5.1 an LTS "tag" when its released already
> >
> > I would mention it, tbh.
> >
> > > also thers the possibility that by december we have nothing that
> really
> > > benefits from a ABI/API/behavior breakage.
> > > If that happens people might prefer 5.2 over 6.0 i dont know.
> >
> > I think it would be clearer to accustom people that we have one big
> potential change every year, at the same date.
> 
> thats not a bad idea. Still bumping the sonames of the libs when there
> is
> no reason is not really nice. I dont know if we will have a reason in
> december

I think, the most valid reason to increase a version number is the
publishing of a release :-)


Totally crazy concept:


ffmpeg 6.0

  libavutil.so.6.0.100
  libavcodec.so.6.0.100
  libavfilter.so.6.0.100
  libavformat.so.6.0.100
  ...

ffmpeg 6.1

  libavutil.so.6.1.100
  libavcodec.so.6.1.100
  libavfilter.so.6.1.100
  libavformat.so.6.1.100
  ...

Best,
softworkz

(yes, I mean no cross-version compatibility)
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[Jean-Baptiste Kempf]

On Mon, 25 Apr 2022, at 20:40, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 08:04:25PM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Kempf wrote:
>> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022, at 19:19, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
>> > On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 01:51:26PM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Kempf wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 23 Apr 2022, at 18:36, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
>> >> > Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
>> >> > Or something else ?
>> >> 
>> >> My understanding of the consensus was;
>> >> - 5.0 in Dec/Jan
>> >> - 5.1 in Jul with API additions, but no ABI/behavior breakage
>> >
>> > yes
>> 
>> OK.
>> 
>> >> - 6.0 in Dec 22 with ABI/API/behavior breakage and while 5.1 becomes LTS
>> >
>> > we could give 5.1 an LTS "tag" when its released already
>> 
>> I would mention it, tbh.
>> 
>> > also thers the possibility that by december we have nothing that really
>> > benefits from a ABI/API/behavior breakage.
>> > If that happens people might prefer 5.2 over 6.0 i dont know.
>> 
>> I think it would be clearer to accustom people that we have one big potential change every year, at the same date.
>
> thats not a bad idea. Still bumping the sonames of the libs when there is
> no reason is not really nice. I dont know if we will have a reason in december

A major number does not mean major soname bump if not needed.
This is release numbers.

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[Michael Niedermayer]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1738 bytes --]

On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 09:44:58PM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Kempf wrote:
> 
> 
> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022, at 20:40, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 08:04:25PM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Kempf wrote:
> >> On Mon, 25 Apr 2022, at 19:19, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> >> > On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 01:51:26PM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Kempf wrote:
> >> >> On Sat, 23 Apr 2022, at 18:36, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> >> >> > Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
> >> >> > Or something else ?
> >> >> 
> >> >> My understanding of the consensus was;
> >> >> - 5.0 in Dec/Jan
> >> >> - 5.1 in Jul with API additions, but no ABI/behavior breakage
> >> >
> >> > yes
> >> 
> >> OK.
> >> 
> >> >> - 6.0 in Dec 22 with ABI/API/behavior breakage and while 5.1 becomes LTS
> >> >
> >> > we could give 5.1 an LTS "tag" when its released already
> >> 
> >> I would mention it, tbh.
> >> 
> >> > also thers the possibility that by december we have nothing that really
> >> > benefits from a ABI/API/behavior breakage.
> >> > If that happens people might prefer 5.2 over 6.0 i dont know.
> >> 
> >> I think it would be clearer to accustom people that we have one big potential change every year, at the same date.
> >
> > thats not a bad idea. Still bumping the sonames of the libs when there is
> > no reason is not really nice. I dont know if we will have a reason in december
> 
> A major number does not mean major soname bump if not needed.
> This is release numbers.

indeed

thx

[...]
-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

Elect your leaders based on what they did after the last election, not
based on what they say before an election.


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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg 5.0 LTS vs 5.1 LTS

[James Almer]

On 4/25/2022 2:19 PM, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 01:51:26PM +0200, Jean-Baptiste Kempf wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Apr 2022, at 18:36, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
>>> Do people prefer that 5.0 becomes LTS or the next (5.1) ?
>>> Or something else ?
>>
>> My understanding of the consensus was;
>> - 5.0 in Dec/Jan
>> - 5.1 in Jul with API additions, but no ABI/behavior breakage
> 
> yes
> 
> 
>> - 6.0 in Dec 22 with ABI/API/behavior breakage and while 5.1 becomes LTS
> 
> we could give 5.1 an LTS "tag" when its released already
> also thers the possibility that by december we have nothing that really
> benefits from a ABI/API/behavior breakage.
> If that happens people might prefer 5.2 over 6.0 i dont know.

An ABI bump doesn't need to be justified by the need to break something 
for the sake of an addition, like new fields to structs with ABI-tied 
size (of which there are not many, for that matter). It could simply be 
done in an scheduled manner to get rid of deprecated stuff that's old 
enough to be dropped, giving the project some predictability, and 
keeping the tree clean-ish.

> 
> thx
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
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