Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Democratization

[Soft Works <softworkz-at-hotmail.com@ffmpeg.org>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ffmpeg-devel <ffmpeg-devel-bounces@ffmpeg.org> On Behalf Of
> Vittorio Giovara
> Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2025 3:39 PM
> To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches <ffmpeg-
> devel@ffmpeg.org>
> Subject: Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Democratization
> 
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2025 at 12:52 PM Soft Works <
> softworkz-at-hotmail.com@ffmpeg.org> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: ffmpeg-devel <ffmpeg-devel-bounces@ffmpeg.org> On Behalf Of
> > > Vittorio Giovara
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2025 11:51 AM
> > > To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches <ffmpeg-
> > > devel@ffmpeg.org>
> > > On Wed, Jan 29, 2025 at 11:32 AM Soft Works <
> > > softworkz-at-hotmail.com@ffmpeg.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: ffmpeg-devel <ffmpeg-devel-bounces@ffmpeg.org> On
> Behalf Of
> > > > > Vittorio Giovara
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2025 10:45 AM
> > > > > To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches <ffmpeg-
> > > > > devel@ffmpeg.org>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Democratization
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Jan 28, 2025 at 7:21 PM Michael Niedermayer
> > > > > <michael@niedermayer.cc>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > About people pointing to me as the cause of something they
> do.
> > > > > > Given iam in this project for over 20 years and iam the
> main
> > > author
> > > > > and
> > > > > > we had a fork long ago. With many people joining back
> together.
> > > > > There are
> > > > > > people who have had past hate and present hate towards me.
> > > > > > Whenever there is an oppertunity, some will point to me as
> teh
> > > > > > cause.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Well "look who it is the consequences of my own actions"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > It makes sense to look at these and ask "do they point to a
> > > real
> > > > > issue?"
> > > > > > is there something we can learn and improve or is this just
> > > dislike
> > > > > towards
> > > > > > me and are they just asking for me to be
> "hanged"/"removed".
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Who banned someone without cause and due process, and deleted
> the
> > > > > archive?
> > > > > Who is undermining the GA and filibustering the ffmpeg
> > > governance?
> > > > > Who prevented the previous CC from operating?
> > > > > Who is ignoring the scam of the ffmpeg booths at trade shows?
> > > > > Who helped keep relevant parts of the infrastructure hidden
> for
> > > > > years?
> > > > > Who is preventing new roots from joining and actual
> > > infrastructure
> > > > > work
> > > > > being done?
> > > > > Who posted insulting images on social networks?
> > > > > Who quoted the STF an unreasonable amount of money for a
> project
> > > that
> > > > > *everybody* agrees is not worth that much?
> > > > > Who argued for MONTHS about dubious code features, and pushed
> > > code
> > > > > (later
> > > > > reverted) to the main tree because it served their own
> branch?
> > > > > Who is refusing to join community discussions in person (or
> > > > > remotely), and
> > > > > keeps posting walls of text that are hard to track and makes
> > > > > following the
> > > > > discussion harder than needs to be?
> > > > > Who is pretending to be democratic and trying to appear as a
> > > martyr,
> > > > > causing people to leave while they actually wanted to
> contribute
> > > and
> > > > > help
> > > > > steward this community?
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't want to get banned again for posting a bullet list,
> but I
> > > > > definitely see a pattern. AND THIS IS JUST IN THE LAST SIX
> > > MONTHS.
> > > > >
> > > > > The thing is NOBODY wants to see you hanged or removed, we're
> > > just
> > > > > pleading
> > > > > to your common sense and that you listen to the community,
> > > allowing
> > > > > for an
> > > > > independent governance to effectively operate ffmpeg. If you
> > > can't
> > > > > satisfy
> > > > > the community requests, then yes, the "unfriendly emails"
> will
> > > > > continue
> > > > > until this behavior is put to an end. And I know you won't
> > > believe me
> > > > > because I'm from "the other side", but once again I invite
> you to
> > > the
> > > > > FOSDEM ffmpeg meeting and see what the community really
> thinks
> > > and
> > > > > wants
> > > > > for yourself.
> > > > >
> > > > > I do belive one big part of some people leaving over the last
> > > years
> > > > > is that
> > > > > > they are not enough in power.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This reads like "I want them to be good minions while I
> continue
> > > to
> > > > > do what
> > > > > I want", but you're right it's off topic.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > for (i=0; i<12; i++) {
> > > >     print("You did this you did that");
> > > > }
> > > >
> > > > if (!(<give us control over ffmpeg>)) {
> > > >     for (i=0; i<1000; i++) {
> > > >         sendEmail("<more accusations>");
> > > >     }
> > > > }
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sounds like the accusations are more a leverage than a
> concern..?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Sounds like you are not adding anything to the discussion, but
> thanks
> > > for
> > > sharing your view.
> >
> > You're very welcome, but which discussion?
> >
> > If this is the way you are discussing, then I don't want to see you
> > shit-storming. 😃
> > I haven't followed the stories behind those individual points you
> are
> > listing - I read a bit through things but for most of them, I'm not
> in a
> > position (from knowledge) to do any judgement.
> >
> > But what I can judge is your way of communication and presentation,
> plus
> > the fact that this is at least the 4th repetition of the same
> content in
> > the same aggressive form.
> >
> > It is obvious that you are not interested in resolving the
> individual
> > "points" you are listing. You want to gain more control over all
> aspects of
> > the ffmpeg project (for "the community") and to fund that argument,
> you
> > have assembled that list of "bad incidents" that all wouldn't have
> happened
> > when the project would under control of somebody else (like you? >>
> or
> > course "backed" by the community).
> >
> > But community or not - it's always actual persons who have certain
> powers
> > in their hands.
> > And my personal view on that is that those who are speaking up so
> loudly
> > and dirty for gaining control are the very last ones to which I
> would want
> > to give such powers.
> >
> 
> You are skewing the discuscussion and attacking me while constructing
> a
> conspiracy theory that is not true (I don't want to gain any control
> at
> all, I want a community-decided process for most of the problems I
> raised)
> and contracting yourself while at at it (the loudest by length and
> number
> of mails on the subject is definitely not me).

That's right, but you have achieved a top ranking in dirtiness and tone. Your messages do not even indicate the tiniest bit of seeking for agreement and consensus in a positive and constructive way. You are trying to increase pressure to achieve goals and you are even openly threatening to continue this kind of pressure if things don't go like you want them to go.

My last sentence wasn't directed to you specifically but exactly the way I said it. I don't find that people who are forming an angry mob and try to execute pressure to achieve their goals are suitable for taking a responsible position in such a project. 

I can imagine that things happened which made you angry and I'm sure you have valid points and reasonings and - as always in life - things are never black and white and mistakes are made on all sides.
But your approach with these kinds of messages doesn't lead anywhere. I'm not sure whether you've missed it, but Michael has already made very clear that what you are aiming for (handing over project control) is not going to happen, so that would be something to accommodate first before continuing a (constructive and positive) discussion about community involvement.

There doesn't exist any right for a "community" to take ownership of a project. That's at the sole discretion of the person who owns it. You should try to imagine that you would have led and factually owned a project for more than 20 years and eventually, some people come around, saying you should give up your ownership and let other people make the decisions while you'd just continue as a contributor. 

What would be your answer? (be honest!)

Mine would be: LOL - NO!


sw

_______________________________________________
ffmpeg-devel mailing list
ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org
https://ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-devel

To unsubscribe, visit link above, or email
ffmpeg-devel-request@ffmpeg.org with subject "unsubscribe".