[FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg Community Committee – Updates & Next Steps

[FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg Community Committee – Updates & Next Steps

[Marth64]

Dear FFmpeg Community,

We’d like to share an update on the work of the Community Committee
(CC). Starting this week, we will hold a weekly internal panel to
discuss community matters and ensure more structured issue resolution.

One of our key goals is to address some of the lingering discussions
from 2024 while laying a strong foundation for the future. We
recognize that progress will be gradual, but we are committed to
working as a team and presenting unified messaging to improve
communication and transparency. We expect to deliver communications
soon on some issues.

We look forward to continuing to serve the FFmpeg community and
fostering a collaborative and productive environment. Thank you for
your ongoing support and engagement.

On behalf of the CC,

Best regards,
Marth64
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg Community Committee – Updates & Next Steps

[Michael Niedermayer]

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Hi Marth64

On Tue, Feb 25, 2025 at 05:04:00PM -0600, Marth64 wrote:
> Dear FFmpeg Community,
> 
> We’d like to share an update on the work of the Community Committee
> (CC). Starting this week, we will hold a weekly internal panel to
> discuss community matters and ensure more structured issue resolution.
> 
> One of our key goals is to address some of the lingering discussions
> from 2024 while laying a strong foundation for the future. We
> recognize that progress will be gradual, but we are committed to
> working as a team and presenting unified messaging to improve
> communication and transparency. We expect to deliver communications
> soon on some issues.
> 
> We look forward to continuing to serve the FFmpeg community and
> fostering a collaborative and productive environment. Thank you for
> your ongoing support and engagement.
> 
> On behalf of the CC,

There are 3+ parts here

1. I agree we need discussions, transparency and maybe IRC or some other
   audio/video form of commuication can be tried. Such discussion should be
   public and open. And they must include admins and main authors.

2. The CC is overstepping its authority.

3. There is a huge growing backlog of increasing development issues
   id like to work on without having to fight and argue over governance
   Id like to backport security fixes, make new releases.

About "internal panel", There should not be a "internal panel" dominated
by videolan developers discussing FFmpeg. If there is such a panel, it
should be the main authors, the people who did spend a significant time
of their life working on FFmpeg. (and you should be included as you seem
good at this, and i should be in it because iam one of the main authors
amongth other things)

Thank you

PS: this is just my initial thought/reply and i may have a better idea
after sleeping over this

[...]
-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

Those who are best at talking, realize last or never when they are wrong.

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg Community Committee – Updates & Next Steps

[Vittorio Giovara]

On Wed, Feb 26, 2025 at 2:51 AM Michael Niedermayer <michael@niedermayer.cc>
wrote:

> Hi Marth64
>
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2025 at 05:04:00PM -0600, Marth64 wrote:
> > Dear FFmpeg Community,
> >
> > We’d like to share an update on the work of the Community Committee
> > (CC). Starting this week, we will hold a weekly internal panel to
> > discuss community matters and ensure more structured issue resolution.
> >
> > One of our key goals is to address some of the lingering discussions
> > from 2024 while laying a strong foundation for the future. We
> > recognize that progress will be gradual, but we are committed to
> > working as a team and presenting unified messaging to improve
> > communication and transparency. We expect to deliver communications
> > soon on some issues.
> >
> > We look forward to continuing to serve the FFmpeg community and
> > fostering a collaborative and productive environment. Thank you for
> > your ongoing support and engagement.
>

Thank you for your work trying to steward the community Marth.


> >
> > On behalf of the CC,
>
> There are 3+ parts here
>
> 1. I agree we need discussions, transparency and maybe IRC or some other
>    audio/video form of commuication can be tried. Such discussion should be
>    public and open. And they must include admins and main authors.
>

No, they shouldn't, otherwise the CC will be influenced by the project
leader *again* and prevented from doing anything actionable *again*.


> 2. The CC is overstepping its authority.
>

No, respectfully, you are.


> 3. There is a huge growing backlog of increasing development issues
>    id like to work on without having to fight and argue over governance
>    Id like to backport security fixes, make new releases.
>

Then stop talking about governance, let the current system in place do its
job :)


> About "internal panel", There should not be a "internal panel" dominated
> by videolan developers discussing FFmpeg.


It never was or has been, but I agree it should be independent, including
from current FFmpeg leadership.


> If there is such a panel, it
> should be the main authors, the people who did spend a significant time
> of their life working on FFmpeg. (and you should be included as you seem
> good at this, and i should be in it because iam one of the main authors
> amongth other things)
>

While people who spent a significant time of their life working on FFmpeg
may be great developers, their skillset might not be matching the one
needed to handle a community.

Cmon we've been over these points, let's not rehash the same drama over and
over, and let the volunteers of the CC do their job.
-- 
Vittorio
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg Community Committee – Updates & Next Steps

[Kieran Kunhya via ffmpeg-devel]

> While people who spent a significant time of their life working on FFmpeg
> may be great developers, their skillset might not be matching the one
> needed to handle a community.
>
> Cmon we've been over these points, let's not rehash the same drama over and
> over, and let the volunteers of the CC do their job.

Hi Vittorio,

A quick reminder that questioning the unelected people who run our
infrastructure in a wholly secretive fashion is unacceptable but
questioning the elected CC is perfectly fine. I thought you knew the
rules here by now.

Regards,
Kieran Kunhya
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg Community Committee – Updates & Next Steps

[Jean-Baptiste Kempf]

On Wed, 26 Feb 2025, at 02:51, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> 1. I agree we need discussions, transparency and maybe IRC or some other
>    audio/video form of commuication can be tried. Such discussion should be
>    public and open. And they must include admins and main authors.

Great, the mailing list is here for that. It is public and open.

> 2. The CC is overstepping its authority.

Literally, the email just says that the CC is now meeting regularly; what authority can it be overstepping?
People speaking together and meeting is now forbidden?

> 3. About "internal panel", There should not be a "internal panel" dominated

CC was elected by GA. GA is composed of most of the active developers. This is not a random internal panel.

And people active in a project are allowed to talk to each other. How can you deny people the right to talk to each other?


-- 
Jean-Baptiste Kempf 
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg Community Committee – Updates & Next Steps

[Michael Niedermayer]

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Hi jb

On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 12:11:39AM +0100, Jean-Baptiste Kempf wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Feb 2025, at 02:51, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
[...]
> > 2. The CC is overstepping its authority.
> 
> Literally, the email just says that the CC is now meeting regularly; what authority can it be overstepping?
> People speaking together and meeting is now forbidden?

"The Community Committee (CC) is here to arbitrage and make decisions when inter-personal conflicts occur in the project. It will decide quickly and take actions, for the sake of the project."
There are NO inter-personal conflicts ATM (very luckily everyone was happy
UNTIL the CC initiates conflicts)

The mail said: "Starting this week, we will hold a weekly internal panel to
discuss community matters and ensure more structured issue resolution.
One of our key goals is to address some of the lingering discussions
from 2024 while laying a strong foundation for the future."

discussion about structured issue resolution in FFmpeg are a matter of the
whole community and not the CC.
"laying a strong foundation for the future. (of FFmpeg)" is not something a
panel of 3 people who have never been elected for that can do behind closed
doors
I want to be part of these discussions for example. Iam one of the main
authors. And iam sure others also want to be part of these discussions

The last such closed door discussion, was VDD2024 and after that we had
months of defamation and mobbing.


> 
> > 3. About "internal panel", There should not be a "internal panel" dominated
> 
> CC was elected by GA. GA is composed of most of the active developers. This is not a random internal panel.

An election that was delayed by the vote superviser until a specific person
joined. Then 2 resigned
And now its not even publically known how many members this CC has.

thx

[...]
-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

Does the universe only have a finite lifespan? No, its going to go on
forever, its just that you wont like living in it. -- Hiranya Peiri

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg Community Committee – Updates & Next Steps

[Vittorio Giovara]

On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 7:18 PM Michael Niedermayer <michael@niedermayer.cc>
wrote:

> Hi jb
>
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 12:11:39AM +0100, Jean-Baptiste Kempf wrote:
> > On Wed, 26 Feb 2025, at 02:51, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> [...]
> > > 2. The CC is overstepping its authority.
> >
> > Literally, the email just says that the CC is now meeting regularly;
> what authority can it be overstepping?
> > People speaking together and meeting is now forbidden?
>
> "The Community Committee (CC) is here to arbitrage and make decisions when
> inter-personal conflicts occur in the project. It will decide quickly and
> take actions, for the sake of the project."
> There are NO inter-personal conflicts ATM (very luckily everyone was happy
> UNTIL the CC initiates conflicts)
>

To be completely honest, while I've been trying to be mostly professional
in our interactions, I still have an inter-personal conflict with you,
mostly related to my unfair and unilateral ban, or rather the fact that
that act had no repercussions whatsoever. I'd really like the CC to resolve
them and make sure we can keep working together without grudges. Also there
are a lot of pending issues from that time (the most grave one IMO, how a
mailing list admin unilaterally censors a thread) whose resolution we
should at least hear about.


> discussion about structured issue resolution in FFmpeg are a matter of the
> whole community and not the CC.
>

The CC is the sole body that has and /should/ have the power of suspending
or banning someone.
An independent body elected by the most active users, what else could you
want more?


> "laying a strong foundation for the future. (of FFmpeg)" is not something a
> panel of 3 people who have never been elected for that can do behind closed
> doors
> I want to be part of these discussions for example. Iam one of the main
> authors. And iam sure others also want to be part of these discussions


I don't think you should. You actively prevented the CC from operating
blocking several suspensions, because they didn't affect "the other side"
as well.
But even then, why didn't you candidate for the CC and be part of the
normal election process?

The last such closed door discussion, was VDD2024 and after that we had
> months of defamation and mobbing.
>

I thought the last closed discussion was about people going to NAB to have
a ffmpeg booth. Or did that never happen entirely?

Also just as a reminder...
being called out for mistreating your fellow developers and your own
project doesn't constitute mobbing, but rather it's just people trying to
explain you why they believe your behavior is actively harming this
community, especially coming from the most active developer

And finally
VDD2024 was not a closed discussion, everybody were able to join and the
notes were published immediately after

> > 3. About "internal panel", There should not be a "internal panel"
> dominated
> >
> > CC was elected by GA. GA is composed of most of the active developers.
> This is not a random internal panel.
>
> An election that was delayed by the vote superviser until a specific person
> joined. Then 2 resigned
> And now its not even publically known how many members this CC has.


This is a grave accusation and very revisionist view at what actually
happened.

Micheal, please seriously stop throwing a fit every time you get scared
that things might not go your way.
You say you want to work on releases and backporting cves? Then go do that
instead of reopening the pandora's box every time.
-- 
Vittorio
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg Community Committee – Updates & Next Steps

[compn]

On Thu, 27 Feb 2025 23:41:14 +0100, Vittorio Giovara wrote:

> them and make sure we can keep working together without grudges. Also there
> are a lot of pending issues from that time (the most grave one IMO, how a
> mailing list admin unilaterally censors a thread) whose resolution we
> should at least hear about.

holding mails for moderation is not censorship. it would be nice if you
as a CC member would decrease the intensity of your accusations towards
me.

the CC's job is not to determine, declare, nor issue edicts of the ml
admins job duties.

as said moderation was thread wide and not on any individual developer,
there is no inter-personal conflict between me or anyone else. everyone
is equal in the eyes of the moderation. 

its possible that some developers are upset about being equals? i think
the CC could help those developers to understand mailing list
administration and moderation if they have an inter-personal conflict
with me.

i think i've sent my thoughts to the previous CC on this issue. but if
the new CC would like to talk, i'm available.

-compn
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg Community Committee – Updates & Next Steps

[Vittorio Giovara]

On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 8:14 AM compn <ff@hawaiiantel.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 27 Feb 2025 23:41:14 +0100, Vittorio Giovara wrote:
>
> > them and make sure we can keep working together without grudges. Also
> there
> > are a lot of pending issues from that time (the most grave one IMO, how a
> > mailing list admin unilaterally censors a thread) whose resolution we
> > should at least hear about.
>
> holding mails for moderation is not censorship. it would be nice if you
> as a CC member would decrease the intensity of your accusations towards
> me.
>

I'm not a CC member

Sorry to ruffle your feathers, but I haven't brought up this issue in
month. The fact that people don't talk about it any more doesn't mean you
get to get away scott free of your actions, or that people should forget.
Once you face proper repercussions for your actions, or the CC decides it
was well within your power, then I'll stop bringing it up. Maybe ask
Micheal to stop filibustering the CC so that the proper course of action
can take place.


> the CC's job is not to determine, declare, nor issue edicts of the ml
> admins job duties.
>
> as said moderation was thread wide and not on any individual developer,
> there is no inter-personal conflict between me or anyone else. everyone
> is equal in the eyes of the moderation.
>
> its possible that some developers are upset about being equals? i think
> the CC could help those developers to understand mailing list
> administration and moderation if they have an inter-personal conflict
> with me.
>
> i think i've sent my thoughts to the previous CC on this issue. but if
> the new CC would like to talk, i'm available.


You should step down, that's the only honorable route left for any abuse of
power.
-- 
Vittorio
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg Community Committee – Updates & Next Steps

[Marth64]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the reply & thoughts.

To clarify on "internal panel" and "structured issue resolution", this
is with regards to unresolved complaints sent to CC, such as publicly
or privately reported interpersonal/CoC issues.
Some high ticket items directed to the CC from last year remain
unaddressed and we were elected to be accountable for this, so we have
to move forward in some way.
There are tough problem statements to unpack and it is not always simple.

The point I was trying to convey is we are going to approach, review,
and push to closure on reported issues in a methodical fashion.
We have set up a cadence to meet on items that our attention was
called to. Kind of like a standup meeting on the tasks we are assigned
to.
So the "panel" in that regard, is a check-in amongst ourselves. If we
feel other people or opinions need to be involved we will navigate
that bridge as we get there.

If CC is engaged for a task then we have to look into it and figure
out a plan or execution.
IIRC one main concern of the CC last year was there was limited
movement on problem solving.

"laying a strong foundation for the future" is with regards to us
putting a process in place and being a visibly effective CC.
The phrase is ambitious but focused on issues that are on our docket.
It's not a blanket statement for a revolution.

For example, laying a parallel hypothetical, this is as if the TC met
once a week to discuss "what's on our agenda this week? what actions
do we need to take? how do we clear roadblocks? what is our north star
for the future?"

Does this help?

Thank you,
Marth64
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg Community Committee – Updates & Next Steps

[Michael Niedermayer]

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Hi Marth64

On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 05:00:30PM -0600, Marth64 wrote:
> Hi Michael,
> 
> Thanks for the reply & thoughts.
> 
> To clarify on "internal panel" and "structured issue resolution", this
> is with regards to unresolved complaints sent to CC, such as publicly
> or privately reported interpersonal/CoC issues.
> Some high ticket items directed to the CC from last year remain
> unaddressed and we were elected to be accountable for this, so we have
> to move forward in some way.
> There are tough problem statements to unpack and it is not always simple.

The mandate of the CC is to
"arbitrage and make decisions when inter-personal conflicts occur in the project. It will decide quickly and take actions, for the sake of the project."

The CC has ignored the mobbing from 2 developers
In fact it has blocked moderators from helping.
(not even mentioning the wasted time, blocking of STF 2025,
 delays in security fixes, ...) that where conseuqences of that

This went on for 2-3 months and one can easily write dozends of independant
complaints. But given that some hostility came directly from a CC member.
And the CC did little. Few complaints where actually submitted.

So what is this all now about exactly ?

It smells like some complaint will be used as pretext for the CC to extend
its mandate.
Something like "Theres a interpersonal conflict related to FFmpeg funds,
now the CC can write an oppinon on funds"
And a disagreement on funds isnt a interpersonal conflict in the first place

Whatever the exact cases this is about, it will take time away
from FFmpeg development. Even if we just have to go over
the past 4 months of debates and mails again and argue about it again

I just dont understand what this is supposed to be good for

thx

[...]

-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

The difference between a dictatorship and a democracy is that every 4 years
the population together is allowed to provide 1 bit of input to the government.

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg Community Committee – Updates & Next Steps

[Vittorio Giovara]

On Fri, Feb 28, 2025 at 8:27 PM Michael Niedermayer <michael@niedermayer.cc>
wrote:

> Hi Marth64
>
> On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 05:00:30PM -0600, Marth64 wrote:
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > Thanks for the reply & thoughts.
> >
> > To clarify on "internal panel" and "structured issue resolution", this
> > is with regards to unresolved complaints sent to CC, such as publicly
> > or privately reported interpersonal/CoC issues.
> > Some high ticket items directed to the CC from last year remain
> > unaddressed and we were elected to be accountable for this, so we have
> > to move forward in some way.
> > There are tough problem statements to unpack and it is not always simple.
>
> The mandate of the CC is to
> "arbitrage and make decisions when inter-personal conflicts occur in the
> project. It will decide quickly and take actions, for the sake of the
> project."
>
> The CC has ignored the mobbing from 2 developers
> In fact it has blocked moderators from helping.
> (not even mentioning the wasted time, blocking of STF 2025,
>  delays in security fixes, ...) that where conseuqences of that


literally fake news
-- 
Vittorio
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg Community Committee – Updates & Next Steps

[Michael Niedermayer]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 896 bytes --]

On Thu, Feb 27, 2025 at 05:00:30PM -0600, Marth64 wrote:
[...]

> It's not a blanket statement for a revolution.
>
> For example, laying a parallel hypothetical, this is as if the TC met
> once a week to discuss "what's on our agenda this week? what actions

The TC has no agenda. It handles cases one by one when there are cases.


> do we need to take? how do we clear roadblocks? what is our north star
> for the future?"

I dont know what you mean by "north star for the future"
but it sounds like its outside your mandate

Also id like to ask for every of your meetings to be recorded and made
public.

thx

[...]
-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

Homeopathy is like voting while filling the ballot out with transparent ink.
Sometimes the outcome one wanted occurs. Rarely its worse than filling out
a ballot properly.

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg Community Committee – Updates & Next Steps

[Rémi Denis-Courmont]

Le perjantaina 28. helmikuuta 2025, 21.29.53 UTC+2 Michael Niedermayer a écrit 
:
> Also id like to ask for every of your meetings to be recorded and made
> public.

Your request has been noted and it is hereby formally denied.

My fellow CC members and I have freedom of reunion and privacy rights. And 
obviously topics such as "occur[ences of] inter-personal conflicts" are 
naturally prone to infringe of third party privacy rights too, so it is 
unrealistic to publish CC discussion, even with the hypothetical assent of all 
CC members.

Likewise, email communications to CC and TC aliases are private. Snooping on 
them or archiving them on the FFmpeg MTA would actually be illegal. Thus we 
cannot and will not get access to the discussions of previous CC either.

-- 
Rémi Denis-Courmont
Hagalund ny stad, f.d. Finska republik Nylands



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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg Community Committee – Updates & Next Steps

[James Almer]

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On 2/25/2025 10:51 PM, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> Hi Marth64
> 
> On Tue, Feb 25, 2025 at 05:04:00PM -0600, Marth64 wrote:
>> Dear FFmpeg Community,
>>
>> We’d like to share an update on the work of the Community Committee
>> (CC). Starting this week, we will hold a weekly internal panel to
>> discuss community matters and ensure more structured issue resolution.
>>
>> One of our key goals is to address some of the lingering discussions
>> from 2024 while laying a strong foundation for the future. We
>> recognize that progress will be gradual, but we are committed to
>> working as a team and presenting unified messaging to improve
>> communication and transparency. We expect to deliver communications
>> soon on some issues.
>>
>> We look forward to continuing to serve the FFmpeg community and
>> fostering a collaborative and productive environment. Thank you for
>> your ongoing support and engagement.
>>
>> On behalf of the CC,
> 
> There are 3+ parts here
> 
> 1. I agree we need discussions, transparency and maybe IRC or some other
>     audio/video form of commuication can be tried. Such discussion should be
>     public and open. And they must include admins and main authors.
> 
> 2. The CC is overstepping its authority.

How? What part of the above makes you think that? He only stated they 
are now discussing and going through the 2024 stuff.

> 
> 3. There is a huge growing backlog of increasing development issues

Yes, he said as much.

>     id like to work on without having to fight and argue over governance
>     Id like to backport security fixes, make new releases.
> 
> About "internal panel", There should not be a "internal panel" dominated
> by videolan developers discussing FFmpeg. If there is such a panel, it
> should be the main authors, the people who did spend a significant time
> of their life working on FFmpeg. (and you should be included as you seem
> good at this, and i should be in it because iam one of the main authors
> amongth other things)

If you wanted to be part of the CC and its deliberations, why didn't you 
volunteer for it during last vote? You were in the previous CC, and you 
would have surely been among the five voted if so.

For what is worth, you, even if not part of the CC but as the one that 
made several accusations (and the target of another bunch), could 
request to be part of the deliberations regarding those specific issues.
Is this codified anywhere? If not, it could be drafted and a vote be 
held for such addition.

> 
> Thank you
> 
> PS: this is just my initial thought/reply and i may have a better idea
> after sleeping over this
> 
> [...]
> 
> 
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