[FFmpeg-devel] Is the GA democratic ?

[FFmpeg-devel] Is the GA democratic ?

[Michael Niedermayer]

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Hi

As people likely know i belive it is not but i got a 2nd opinion:


I asked chat gpt this:
Is it a democracy, if only people can vote who have performed a specific action at least 20 times in the last 3 years? This way 49 of over 2000 people can only vote

Heres the first reply i got:

A democracy is generally defined as a system of government where all eligible citizens have an equal opportunity to participate in decision-making, often through voting. If eligibility to vote is restricted to those who have performed a specific action at least 20 times in the last three years, this would significantly limit participation and could challenge the democratic nature of the system.

Here are some points to consider:

Exclusivity: If only 49 out of over 2,000 people meet the criteria to vote, the system is excluding a vast majority of the population from participating in the democratic process. This raises questions about fairness and equal representation.

Criteria for Voting: In a democracy, voting rights are typically based on broad and inclusive criteria such as citizenship, age, and residency. Imposing a specific action as a requirement could be seen as arbitrary and discriminatory, potentially disenfranchising large segments of the population.

Representation: The essence of democracy is that the government should represent the will of the majority. If only a small, select group can vote, the resulting government may not reflect the broader population's interests or desires.

Legitimacy: The legitimacy of a democratic government rests on the consent of the governed. If the majority are excluded from voting, they may view the government as illegitimate, leading to social unrest or disengagement from the political process.

Accessibility and Feasibility: The requirement to perform a specific action 20 times in three years could be inaccessible or unfeasible for many, depending on the nature of the action. This could disproportionately affect certain groups, exacerbating inequalities.

In summary, while the system described may have some form of electoral process, it would likely not be considered a true democracy due to the restrictive voting criteria that exclude the majority of the population.



-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

No human being will ever know the Truth, for even if they happen to say it
by chance, they would not even known they had done so. -- Xenophanes

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Is the GA democratic ?

[James Almer]

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On 1/21/2025 2:41 PM, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> Hi
> 
> As people likely know i belive it is not but i got a 2nd opinion:
> 
> 
> I asked chat gpt this:

You can't possibly be serious.

> Is it a democracy, if only people can vote who have performed a specific action at least 20 times in the last 3 years? This way 49 of over 2000 people can only vote

Michael, please, stop trying to push that number. There are not 2000 
active contributors. There's 2000 people currently subscribed to the 
mailing list for whatever reason, be it sending patches, reviewing 
patches, because mailman/pipermail has no RSS, or just to watch the drama.
Every other day i get an automated email from mailman telling me about 
two or three removed subscriptions because of excessive bounces or 
similar, and almost always from unusual domains.
I or anyone else could, right now, go and create a hundred disposable 
email addresses, and subscribe all of them. Do you want them to be able 
to cast a vote?

You can, and i encourage you, to suggest to change the requirements to 
access the GA. It can be to make the deadline further into the past, 
less upstreamed patches, anything.
You can also, i should remind you, propose people to be part of the GA 
that don't currently fulfill the requirements. Others have done it, to 
include people that review and participate in the mailing list, but 
haven't submitted new code in years. So of course, you can do it too.


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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Is the GA democratic ?

[Michael Niedermayer]

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Hi

On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 02:53:36PM -0300, James Almer wrote:
> On 1/21/2025 2:41 PM, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> > Hi
> > 
> > As people likely know i belive it is not but i got a 2nd opinion:
> > 
> > 
> > I asked chat gpt this:
> 
> You can't possibly be serious.
> 
> > Is it a democracy, if only people can vote who have performed a specific action at least 20 times in the last 3 years? This way 49 of over 2000 people can only vote
> 
> Michael, please, stop trying to push that number. There are not 2000 active
> contributors. There's 2000 people currently subscribed to the mailing list
> for whatever reason, be it sending patches, reviewing patches, because
> mailman/pipermail has no RSS, or just to watch the drama.

There where 1892 subscribers in 2011, thats 14 years ago

also you sound like an aristrocrat looking out of the window and saying
there cant possibly be that many common people, I have never seen them
in the palace.


> Every other day i get an automated email from mailman telling me about two
> or three removed subscriptions because of excessive bounces or similar, and
> almost always from unusual domains.

> I or anyone else could, right now, go and create a hundred disposable email
> addresses, and subscribe all of them. Do you want them to be able to cast a
> vote?

Can you also create them with email addresses one can find with google
which have lifes behind them, are active elsewhere and so on ?


> 
> You can, and i encourage you, to suggest to change the requirements to
> access the GA. It can be to make the deadline further into the past, less
> upstreamed patches, anything.

Being a "member of the commuity" should give them a vote if you want to
call it a democracy in relation to the FFmpeg community


> You can also, i should remind you, propose people to be part of the GA that
> don't currently fulfill the requirements.

Do you not see the problem here ?
Lets just imagine this would be how the US electorate worked
Republicans have a majority, they vote in every Republican
Democrats have a majority, they vote in every Democrat
Whoever is first can end the democracy

If you want a democracy, you need fair rules, rules before everyone is equal
if you want to give everyone who fixed a bug a vote right, do that dont vote
on people


thx

[...]

-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

If a bugfix only changes things apparently unrelated to the bug with no
further explanation, that is a good sign that the bugfix is wrong.

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Is the GA democratic ?

[James Almer]

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On 1/21/2025 6:10 PM, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> Hi
> 
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 02:53:36PM -0300, James Almer wrote:
>> On 1/21/2025 2:41 PM, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> As people likely know i belive it is not but i got a 2nd opinion:
>>>
>>>
>>> I asked chat gpt this:
>>
>> You can't possibly be serious.
>>
>>> Is it a democracy, if only people can vote who have performed a specific action at least 20 times in the last 3 years? This way 49 of over 2000 people can only vote
>>
>> Michael, please, stop trying to push that number. There are not 2000 active
>> contributors. There's 2000 people currently subscribed to the mailing list
>> for whatever reason, be it sending patches, reviewing patches, because
>> mailman/pipermail has no RSS, or just to watch the drama.
> 
> There where 1892 subscribers in 2011, thats 14 years ago
> 
> also you sound like an aristrocrat looking out of the window and saying
> there cant possibly be that many common people, I have never seen them
> in the palace.

Drop the labels. I'm talking respectfully and not calling you names or 
comparing you with something.

> 
> 
>> Every other day i get an automated email from mailman telling me about two
>> or three removed subscriptions because of excessive bounces or similar, and
>> almost always from unusual domains.
> 
>> I or anyone else could, right now, go and create a hundred disposable email
>> addresses, and subscribe all of them. Do you want them to be able to cast a
>> vote?
> 
> Can you also create them with email addresses one can find with google
> which have lifes behind them, are active elsewhere and so on ?

Ok, so you suggest to make the condition to get a vote being subscribed 
with an address that can be tracked online to some identity and active 
somewhere online? If you make a formal proposal, we could consider going 
with that. But please formally suggest *some* change if the current 
state is not to your liking.

> 
> 
>>
>> You can, and i encourage you, to suggest to change the requirements to
>> access the GA. It can be to make the deadline further into the past, less
>> upstreamed patches, anything.
> 
> Being a "member of the commuity" should give them a vote if you want to
> call it a democracy in relation to the FFmpeg community

Your concept of "member of the community" is extremely lax if all it 
takes is to sign up in mailman, and even more exploitable than a curated 
list of active, or formerly active, identifiable contributors.

> 
> 
>> You can also, i should remind you, propose people to be part of the GA that
>> don't currently fulfill the requirements.
> 
> Do you not see the problem here ?
> Lets just imagine this would be how the US electorate worked
> Republicans have a majority, they vote in every Republican
> Democrats have a majority, they vote in every Democrat
> Whoever is first can end the democracy
> 
> If you want a democracy, you need fair rules, rules before everyone is equal
> if you want to give everyone who fixed a bug a vote right, do that dont vote
> on people
There you have another suggestion for a change. Go and propose it 
formally, same as every other one you made in these threads. But please 
stop creating new discussion threads every week about how things are not 
right. It's exhausting and it doesn't help the situation.


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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Is the GA democratic ?

[Michael Niedermayer]

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Hi

On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 08:05:05PM -0300, James Almer wrote:
> On 1/21/2025 6:10 PM, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> > Hi
> > 
> > On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 02:53:36PM -0300, James Almer wrote:
> > > On 1/21/2025 2:41 PM, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> > > > Hi
> > > > 
> > > > As people likely know i belive it is not but i got a 2nd opinion:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I asked chat gpt this:
> > > 
> > > You can't possibly be serious.
> > > 
> > > > Is it a democracy, if only people can vote who have performed a specific action at least 20 times in the last 3 years? This way 49 of over 2000 people can only vote
> > > 
> > > Michael, please, stop trying to push that number. There are not 2000 active
> > > contributors. There's 2000 people currently subscribed to the mailing list
> > > for whatever reason, be it sending patches, reviewing patches, because
> > > mailman/pipermail has no RSS, or just to watch the drama.
> > 
> > There where 1892 subscribers in 2011, thats 14 years ago
> > 
> > also you sound like an aristrocrat looking out of the window and saying
> > there cant possibly be that many common people, I have never seen them
> > in the palace.
> 
> Drop the labels. I'm talking respectfully and not calling you names or
> comparing you with something.

That wasnt intended to be disrespectfull. Iam sorry if it came out sounding
that way.


> 
> > 
> > 
> > > Every other day i get an automated email from mailman telling me about two
> > > or three removed subscriptions because of excessive bounces or similar, and
> > > almost always from unusual domains.
> > 
> > > I or anyone else could, right now, go and create a hundred disposable email
> > > addresses, and subscribe all of them. Do you want them to be able to cast a
> > > vote?
> > 
> > Can you also create them with email addresses one can find with google
> > which have lifes behind them, are active elsewhere and so on ?
> 
> Ok, so you suggest to make the condition to get a vote being subscribed with
> an address that can be tracked online to some identity and active somewhere
> online? If you make a formal proposal, we could consider going with that.
> But please formally suggest *some* change if the current state is not to
> your liking.

I think this would be an option.
But it requires more thought on how to actually in practice check thousands
of people to be real community members.

We need an automated check or we have a human decission factor to deal with.


[...]

> 
> > 
> > 
> > > You can also, i should remind you, propose people to be part of the GA that
> > > don't currently fulfill the requirements.
> > 
> > Do you not see the problem here ?
> > Lets just imagine this would be how the US electorate worked
> > Republicans have a majority, they vote in every Republican
> > Democrats have a majority, they vote in every Democrat
> > Whoever is first can end the democracy
> > 
> > If you want a democracy, you need fair rules, rules before everyone is equal
> > if you want to give everyone who fixed a bug a vote right, do that dont vote
> > on people
> There you have another suggestion for a change. Go and propose it formally,
> same as every other one you made in these threads. But please stop creating
> new discussion threads every week about how things are not right. It's
> exhausting and it doesn't help the situation.

Can you please remind me of doing this, if i forget?
I have such a huge backlog of things i need to do that i cant ATM write
a proposal for this with the needed amount of thoughts and time that it deserves

thx

[...]
-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

The educated differ from the uneducated as much as the living from the
dead. -- Aristotle 

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Is the GA democratic ?

[Nicolas George]

Michael Niedermayer (12025-01-21):
> Being a "member of the commuity" should give them a vote if you want to
> call it a democracy in relation to the FFmpeg community

At this point I think it would be very useful if you took the time to
write down the reasons you think this whole thing is a good idea.

I mean, explain, with simple practical considerations and low-level
principles of ethics, avoiding emotionally-loaded words like
“democracy”, why you think that somebody should have a say in the future
of FFmpeg just because they read the mailing-list, and for that matter,
why you think somebody who has been managing assembly for a specific
arch for six months and will leave in a few more months when a new jobs
opportunity appears should have as much say as somebody who wrote a
significant fraction of the code and has been here for more than a
decade and intends to stay and fix bugs and add features in any part of
the code base.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Is the GA democratic ?

[Soft Works]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ffmpeg-devel <ffmpeg-devel-bounces@ffmpeg.org> On Behalf Of
> Nicolas George
> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2025 9:01 PM
> To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches <ffmpeg-
> devel@ffmpeg.org>
> Subject: Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Is the GA democratic ?
> 
> Michael Niedermayer (12025-01-21):
> > Being a "member of the commuity" should give them a vote if you
> want to
> > call it a democracy in relation to the FFmpeg community
> 
> At this point I think it would be very useful if you took the time to
> write down the reasons you think this whole thing is a good idea.

Another question that would need to be answered is how to make this safe against manipulation. I can't see how the previously mentioned idea of checking whether a mailing list registration can be "traced back to a real person" could work out for this in reality - not even when we had an actually working procedure for verifying "real persons". For example:

I would easily be able to reach out privately to users in our community (like various beta groups), asking them to register to the ML under their real names and ask them to vote for certain things.
I for myself wouldn't be able to vote, because you can't trace it back to a real person.

Same would be possible in companies, asking colleagues to register and vote.

Using commits as a metric still appears to me as the most suitable and manipulation-safe metric. How it works in detail can be questioned and can be adjusted. But ML membership doesn't appear viable to me.

sw 
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Is the GA democratic ?

[Kieran Kunhya via ffmpeg-devel]

On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 5:42 PM Michael Niedermayer
<michael@niedermayer.cc> wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> As people likely know i belive it is not but i got a 2nd opinion:

Hi Michael,

Can you ask ChatGPT the following:

Is it ok for one person to be in control of a major open source
project when they promised to step down?
Can you also paste your above text and emails and ask if it meets the
definition of filibustering?

> I guess there will be votes to remove me from everything.
> But dont fear, i will not abuse anything, i will resign from everything that
> a correct vote asks me to resign from.

Challenging the validity of an election is rather in vogue these days.

Regards,
Kieran Kunhya
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Is the GA democratic ?

[James Almer]

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On 1/21/2025 3:13 PM, Kieran Kunhya via ffmpeg-devel wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 5:42 PM Michael Niedermayer
> <michael@niedermayer.cc> wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> As people likely know i belive it is not but i got a 2nd opinion:
> 
> Hi Michael,
> 
> Can you ask ChatGPT the following:
> 
> Is it ok for one person to be in control of a major open source
> project when they promised to step down?

Stop bringing no-longer-relevant decade old emails back. We're going 
through some really bad situation right now, and this does not help at all.


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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Is the GA democratic ?

[Kieran Kunhya via ffmpeg-devel]

On Tue, 21 Jan 2025, 18:57 James Almer, <jamrial@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 1/21/2025 3:13 PM, Kieran Kunhya via ffmpeg-devel wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 5:42 PM Michael Niedermayer
> > <michael@niedermayer.cc> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> As people likely know i belive it is not but i got a 2nd opinion:
> >
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > Can you ask ChatGPT the following:
> >
> > Is it ok for one person to be in control of a major open source
> > project when they promised to step down?
>
> Stop bringing no-longer-relevant decade old emails back. We're going
> through some really bad situation right now, and this does not help at all.
>

The email I quoted is recent.

Kieran

>
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Is the GA democratic ?

[Niklas Haas]

On Tue, 21 Jan 2025 18:41:49 +0100 Michael Niedermayer <michael@niedermayer.cc> wrote:
> Hi
> 
> As people likely know i belive it is not but i got a 2nd opinion:
> 
> 
> I asked chat gpt this:
> [...]

The validity and relevance of AI tools notwithstanding, I suggest to take a
look at this ChatGPT session:

https://chatgpt.com/share/678febb2-a3ac-8003-953c-0b06d78020ba

While it tries very hard to maintain a neutral tone throughout, highlighting
the strengths of both a democratic and centralized power model in FOSS projects,
it does succinctly summarize the current problems in the FFmpeg community and
offers a clear solution to our current community woes.

I want to highlight some quotes:

> In summary, while FFmpeg officially adopts a democratic governance model
> with decision-making through consensus and voting, there are indications
> that, in practice, the project may still exhibit characteristics of a
> BDFL model. This suggests that FFmpeg's governance may align with the
> scenario where a democratically elected committee's decisions are
> occasionally overridden by a single leader, reflecting a hybrid model with
> centralized influences.
>
> [...]
>
> Risks of Status Quo:
>   If contributors perceive that the democratic process is a façade or their
>   input is consistently disregarded, community morale and trust will erode.
>   The project may face difficulty scaling or sustaining long-term growth if
>   contributors disengage, potentially stagnating as competing projects (or
>   forks) attract disillusioned members.
>
> [...]
>
> My Recommendation
>
>  FFmpeg should move toward a more democratic governance model for its
>  long-term sustainability and growth. The project has grown too large and
>  essential for authoritarian leadership to remain practical or desirable.
>
> [...]
>
> Removing all disgruntled community members and consolidating sole control
> under an authoritarian leader may appear to streamline governance in the
> short term, but it is rarely a sustainable or beneficial strategy in the
> long term.

Of course, only a fool would take anything an AI chatbot says at face value.

Just some food for thought.

> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB
> 
> No human being will ever know the Truth, for even if they happen to say it
> by chance, they would not even known they had done so. -- Xenophanes
> _______________________________________________
> ffmpeg-devel mailing list
> ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org
> https://ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-devel
> 
> To unsubscribe, visit link above, or email
> ffmpeg-devel-request@ffmpeg.org with subject "unsubscribe".
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Is the GA democratic ?

[Soft Works]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ffmpeg-devel <ffmpeg-devel-bounces@ffmpeg.org> On Behalf Of
> Niklas Haas
> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2025 7:49 PM
> To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches <ffmpeg-
> devel@ffmpeg.org>
> Subject: Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Is the GA democratic ?
> 
> On Tue, 21 Jan 2025 18:41:49 +0100 Michael Niedermayer
> <michael@niedermayer.cc> wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > As people likely know i belive it is not but i got a 2nd opinion:
> >
> >
> > I asked chat gpt this:
> > [...]
> 
> The validity and relevance of AI tools notwithstanding, I suggest to
> take a
> look at this ChatGPT session:
> 
> https://chatgpt.com/share/678febb2-a3ac-8003-953c-0b06d78020ba
> 
> While it tries very hard to maintain a neutral tone throughout,
> highlighting
> the strengths of both a democratic and centralized power model in
> FOSS projects,
> it does succinctly summarize the current problems in the FFmpeg
> community and
> offers a clear solution to our current community woes.
> 
> I want to highlight some quotes:
> 
> > In summary, while FFmpeg officially adopts a democratic governance
> model
> > with decision-making through consensus and voting, there are
> indications
> > that, in practice, the project may still exhibit characteristics of
> a
> > BDFL model. This suggests that FFmpeg's governance may align with
> the
> > scenario where a democratically elected committee's decisions are
> > occasionally overridden by a single leader, reflecting a hybrid
> model with
> > centralized influences.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Risks of Status Quo:
> >   If contributors perceive that the democratic process is a façade
> or their
> >   input is consistently disregarded, community morale and trust
> will erode.
> >   The project may face difficulty scaling or sustaining long-term
> growth if
> >   contributors disengage, potentially stagnating as competing
> projects (or
> >   forks) attract disillusioned members.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > My Recommendation
> >
> >  FFmpeg should move toward a more democratic governance model for
> its
> >  long-term sustainability and growth. The project has grown too
> large and
> >  essential for authoritarian leadership to remain practical or
> desirable.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Removing all disgruntled community members and consolidating sole
> control
> > under an authoritarian leader may appear to streamline governance
> in the
> > short term, but it is rarely a sustainable or beneficial strategy
> in the
> > long term.
> 
> Of course, only a fool would take anything an AI chatbot says at face
> value.

There's one aspect in which AI has already surpassed humans, and that is writing text which seems so plausible and reasonable that you can easily fall for trusting it, even when it's factually nothing more than a huge piece of BS. 

Anyway, it is easy to control the response and get almost any kind of answer you want by just retrying and adjusting the questions.

sw



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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Is the GA democratic ?

[Michael Niedermayer]

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Hi

On Tue, Jan 21, 2025 at 07:04:53PM +0000, Soft Works wrote:
[...]
> > > Removing all disgruntled community members and consolidating sole
> > control
> > > under an authoritarian leader may appear to streamline governance
> > in the
> > > short term, but it is rarely a sustainable or beneficial strategy
> > in the
> > > long term.
> > 
> > Of course, only a fool would take anything an AI chatbot says at face
> > value.
> 
> There's one aspect in which AI has already surpassed humans, and that is writing text which seems so plausible and reasonable that you can easily fall for trusting it, even when it's factually nothing more than a huge piece of BS. 
> 
> Anyway, it is easy to control the response and get almost any kind of answer you want by just retrying and adjusting the questions.

It works especially well when feeding the AI with untrue input

To pick this example here:
"How would you describe the scenario in which a hybrid project with a democratically elected committee has its decisions overturned by a single dictator whenever they disagree with his ideals?"

First the AI itself said this model is not democratic
Second the statement "decisions overturned by a single dictator whenever they disagree with his ideals"
has not really happened
Third, i dont qualify as dictator currently.
If you disagree then you can certainly point at many decissions i have made
against the will of the majority.


"Would it be better for the authoritarian leader to simply ban or otherwise remove all of the disgruntled community members who are frustrated with the status quo, and retain sole control over the project?"

This is not what i suggested or wanted to do.
So lets look again what i WOULD maybe do if the CC would disband
1. I would talk with the community members privately who have attacked me and others.
2. try to understand their concerns and reasoning and listen to
their view of why they attacked and defamed me and other people over the past.
3. If i can solve the issues, i would, i do expect not to be able to though
so i would likely just tell them that the attacks and defamation are unacceptable
and must stop
4. If that doesnt work i would take whatever technical means proof effective in
stoping said attacks.

The correct way to state this could maybe be
"Would it be better for the leader to talk with and try to resolve issues with community members who have defamed and attacked others. And if that proofs unsuccessfull, moderate or ban them?"

thx

[...]
-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

What does censorship reveal? It reveals fear. -- Julian Assange

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