[FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg table at NAB

[FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg table at NAB

[Devin Heitmueller]

Hello all,

I wasn't looking to start trouble, but I didn't see any discussion of
this on the mailing list so wanted to bring it to the developer
community's attention.

I attended the NAB conference and went by the "ffmpeg" booth on
Sunday.  What I found was a single table with the official ffmpeg
banner hanging right next to a banner for the GPAC project, and two
salespeople from GPAC handing out marketing literature and trying to
educate me on why I should use their framework for my next project.

I'm not saying that GPAC shouldn't be able to have a table at the
conference, but it feels pretty misleading to have an "ffmpeg" booth
listed in the conference materials, with a table prominently
displaying the ffmpeg logo, with zero people from ffmpeg and people
pushing users to use an alternative framework that some might actually
considered to be a competitor to ffmpeg.

Devin

-- 
Devin Heitmueller, Senior Software Engineer
LTN Global Communications
o: +1 (301) 363-1001
w: https://ltnglobal.com  e: devin.heitmueller@ltnglobal.com
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg table at NAB

[Paul B Mahol]

On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 1:21 AM Devin Heitmueller <
devin.heitmueller@ltnglobal.com> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> I wasn't looking to start trouble, but I didn't see any discussion of
> this on the mailing list so wanted to bring it to the developer
> community's attention.
>
> I attended the NAB conference and went by the "ffmpeg" booth on
> Sunday.  What I found was a single table with the official ffmpeg
> banner hanging right next to a banner for the GPAC project, and two
> salespeople from GPAC handing out marketing literature and trying to
> educate me on why I should use their framework for my next project.
>
> I'm not saying that GPAC shouldn't be able to have a table at the
> conference, but it feels pretty misleading to have an "ffmpeg" booth
> listed in the conference materials, with a table prominently
> displaying the ffmpeg logo, with zero people from ffmpeg and people
> pushing users to use an alternative framework that some might actually
> considered to be a competitor to ffmpeg.
>
>
Agreed, forget about FFmpeg.

Use Librempeg.


> Devin
>
> --
> Devin Heitmueller, Senior Software Engineer
> LTN Global Communications
> o: +1 (301) 363-1001
> w: https://ltnglobal.com  e: devin.heitmueller@ltnglobal.com
> _______________________________________________
> ffmpeg-devel mailing list
> ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org
> https://ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-devel
>
> To unsubscribe, visit link above, or email
> ffmpeg-devel-request@ffmpeg.org with subject "unsubscribe".
>
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg table at NAB

[Derek Buitenhuis]

On 4/17/2024 12:21 AM, Devin Heitmueller wrote:
> Hello all,

[...]

Yeah, this is exactly what I was screaming into the void about
for literal months, no literally 0 response.

Look for the thread: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg at NAB 2024

It spans months.

My last mail is particularily relevant to your experience: 
    https://ffmpeg.org//pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2024-March/324816.html

I assume Thilo was hung over, and thus not on the booth.

It is a disgrace.

- Derek
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg table at NAB

[James Almer]

On 4/17/2024 10:49 AM, Derek Buitenhuis wrote:
> On 4/17/2024 12:21 AM, Devin Heitmueller wrote:
>> Hello all,
> 
> [...]
> 
> Yeah, this is exactly what I was screaming into the void about
> for literal months, no literally 0 response.
> 
> Look for the thread: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg at NAB 2024
> 
> It spans months.
> 
> My last mail is particularily relevant to your experience:
>      https://ffmpeg.org//pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2024-March/324816.html
> 
> I assume Thilo was hung over, and thus not on the booth.

But why were there GPAC people at the FFmpeg booth?
And i don't think a single person should represent the project in these 
conferences to begin with. All this should go through the GA, including 
who funds it and how.

> 
> It is a disgrace.
> 
> - Derek
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg table at NAB

[Derek Buitenhuis]

On 4/17/2024 2:54 PM, James Almer wrote:
> But why were there GPAC people at the FFmpeg booth?
> And i don't think a single person should represent the project in these 
> conferences to begin with. All this should go through the GA, including 
> who funds it and how.

That is a good question, and one that I asked weeks ago (as per link).

- Derek
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[FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct (was: FFmpeg table at NAB)

[Ronald S. Bultje]

Derek,

On Wed, Apr 17, 2024 at 9:50 AM Derek Buitenhuis <derek.buitenhuis@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I assume Thilo was hung over, and thus not on the booth.
>
> It is a disgrace.
>

This was an unnecessary personal attack, please don't do that again. Repeat
offense may result in temporary bans on the mailinglist and/or IRC. Please
keep it civil.

Signed unanimously,
your CC (Ronald, Michael, JB, James)
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct

[Derek Buitenhuis]

On 4/17/2024 8:00 PM, Ronald S. Bultje wrote:
> This was an unnecessary personal attack, please don't do that again. Repeat
> offense may result in temporary bans on the mailinglist and/or IRC. Please
> keep it civil.

That does not make it untrue, however.

I would have preferred a ban.

- Derek
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct

[James Almer]

On 4/17/2024 4:30 PM, Derek Buitenhuis wrote:
> On 4/17/2024 8:00 PM, Ronald S. Bultje wrote:
>> This was an unnecessary personal attack, please don't do that again. Repeat
>> offense may result in temporary bans on the mailinglist and/or IRC. Please
>> keep it civil.
> 
> That does not make it untrue, however.

It's ok to have opinions. But there are better way to express them.

> 
> I would have preferred a ban.

Let's drop it here, please.
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct

[Derek Buitenhuis]

On 4/17/2024 8:33 PM, James Almer wrote:
>>> This was an unnecessary personal attack, please don't do that again. Repeat
>>> offense may result in temporary bans on the mailinglist and/or IRC. Please
>>> keep it civil.
>>
>> That does not make it untrue, however.
> 
> It's ok to have opinions. But there are better way to express them.

It is not an opinion if it is true.

>> I would have preferred a ban.
> 
> Let's drop it here, please.

I will say what I said earlier in private.

[16:15] <Daemon404> i am tired of the whole thing where the person pointing out the insanity is punished because they were mean
[16:15] <Daemon404> and the people doing long term damage keep on scott free
[16:17] <Daemon404> focusing on Mean Words
[16:17] <Daemon404> instead of deeper issues

I agree I was out of line, but for the above reason (among others), the CC is a lame duck,
lacking the ability to enact actual meaningful change. The modus operandi here is to drive
anyone sane into eventually getting angry and saying regretful things. Gaslighting, sort of.
More like [1]. Coupled with the complacent attitude of Please Just Stop So I Can Code from
a chunk of the rest of the community, I find myself screaming into the void.

I am tired of screaming into the void.

I have taken this opportunity to unsubscribe for a while, as a self imposed temp ban for my
own benefit. I did that last time I felt like [1] here, and it was beneficial.

- Derek

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOK6mE7sdvs
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Mailinglist conduct

[James Almer]

On 4/17/2024 4:43 PM, Derek Buitenhuis wrote:
> On 4/17/2024 8:33 PM, James Almer wrote:
>>>> This was an unnecessary personal attack, please don't do that again. Repeat
>>>> offense may result in temporary bans on the mailinglist and/or IRC. Please
>>>> keep it civil.
>>>
>>> That does not make it untrue, however.
>>
>> It's ok to have opinions. But there are better way to express them.
> 
> It is not an opinion if it is true.
> 
>>> I would have preferred a ban.
>>
>> Let's drop it here, please.
> 
> I will say what I said earlier in private.
> 
> [16:15] <Daemon404> i am tired of the whole thing where the person pointing out the insanity is punished because they were mean
> [16:15] <Daemon404> and the people doing long term damage keep on scott free
> [16:17] <Daemon404> focusing on Mean Words
> [16:17] <Daemon404> instead of deeper issues

What i saw were questions that went unanswered a few months ago, and now 
you being angry with said person that you say gets scott free.
Can you please explain the overall situation, from your PoV? I swear a 
lot of stuff just happens behind curtains and i and others only notice 
it when it explodes.

> 
> I agree I was out of line, but for the above reason (among others), the CC is a lame duck,

One email saying one thing out of the line is no reason for a ban. Why 
would you want to force anyone to do that?

Seriously, there's a lot of missing context here, and my work as part of 
the CC gets complex. Half the stuff i know about this i learned on IRC 
only a few hours ago, which apparently was common knowledge for some and 
news for others.

> lacking the ability to enact actual meaningful change. The modus operandi here is to drive
> anyone sane into eventually getting angry and saying regretful things. Gaslighting, sort of.
> More like [1]. Coupled with the complacent attitude of Please Just Stop So I Can Code from
> a chunk of the rest of the community, I find myself screaming into the void.
> 
> I am tired of screaming into the void.

This is what i mean when i say things only become apparent when they 
explode.

> 
> I have taken this opportunity to unsubscribe for a while, as a self imposed temp ban for my
> own benefit. I did that last time I felt like [1] here, and it was beneficial.
> 
> - Derek
> 
> [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOK6mE7sdvs
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg table at NAB

[Thilo Borgmann via ffmpeg-devel]

Hi,

> Am 16.04.2024 um 16:21 schrieb Devin Heitmueller <devin.heitmueller@ltnglobal.com>:
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I wasn't looking to start trouble, but I didn't see any discussion of
> this on the mailing list so wanted to bring it to the developer
> community's attention.
> 
> I attended the NAB conference and went by the "ffmpeg" booth on
> Sunday.  What I found was a single table with the official ffmpeg
> banner hanging right next to a banner for the GPAC project, and two
> salespeople from GPAC handing out marketing literature and trying to
> educate me on why I should use their framework for my next project.
> 
> I'm not saying that GPAC shouldn't be able to have a table at the
> conference, but it feels pretty misleading to have an "ffmpeg" booth
> listed in the conference materials, with a table prominently
> displaying the ffmpeg logo, with zero people from ffmpeg and people
> pushing users to use an alternative framework that some might actually
> considered to be a competitor to ffmpeg.

so I talked to the GPAC folks and Devin as well. The missing part of the information exchanged was apparently that there‘s nobody from FFmpeg here _at the moment_. 

Devin did circle around a bit for a while, never saw FFpeople in that time. 
Thing is that in the afternoons, Ramiro and me were out for lunch off-site, for around 90 minutes - plenty of time never to be seen by Devin. 

Additionally, not having followed the November announcement and subsequent posts too closely, lead to even more suspicion. 

So, Devin, as I told you earlier, thank you very much for your mail - in case that would have actually been some sort of misuse of our name, we’d totally want to 
become aware of. 

Thanks,
Thilo
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg table at NAB

[Rémi Denis-Courmont]

Hi,

I have been dragged privately into this issue so for the sake of transparency, I will just sum up my side here.


Le 17 avril 2024 07:21:18 GMT+08:00, Devin Heitmueller <devin.heitmueller@ltnglobal.com> a écrit :
>Hello all,
>
>I wasn't looking to start trouble, but I didn't see any discussion of
>this on the mailing list so wanted to bring it to the developer
>community's attention.
>
>I attended the NAB conference and went by the "ffmpeg" booth on
>Sunday.  What I found was a single table with the official ffmpeg
>banner hanging right next to a banner for the GPAC project, and two
>salespeople from GPAC handing out marketing literature and trying to
>educate me on why I should use their framework for my next project.

Thilo did announce that some unidentified party would be payind for FFmpeg to hold a booth (this should be visible in the archives). Kieran raised legitimate if not concerning questions based on his prior experience at NAB. Thilo did not answer, which is inexcusable, especially considering that there were several times that the questions were reiterated.

Thilo privately called Kieran a "troll" as the lame pretext for not answering the question (I can copy the CC privately if proof of this is needed).

In light of this, it seemed obvious that the FFmpeg booth would be a disaster, pretty much how Kieran had predicted.

So there you have it. On the bright side, FFmpeg was not footing the bill.

I think everybody can make their own conclusions without me speculating or opiniating further, so I will leave it at that.

>I'm not saying that GPAC shouldn't be able to have a table at the
>conference, but it feels pretty misleading to have an "ffmpeg" booth
>listed in the conference materials, with a table prominently
>displaying the ffmpeg logo, with zero people from ffmpeg and people
>pushing users to use an alternative framework that some might actually
>considered to be a competitor to ffmpeg.

Agreed. Thanks for your testimony.
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg table at NAB

[Thilo Borgmann via ffmpeg-devel]

Hi,

On 21.04.24 10:47, Rémi Denis-Courmont wrote:
 > Hi,
 >
 > I have been dragged privately into this issue so for the sake of 
transparency, I will just sum up my side here.
 >
 >
 > Le 17 avril 2024 07:21:18 GMT+08:00, Devin Heitmueller 
<devin.heitmueller@ltnglobal.com> a écrit :
 >> Hello all,
 >>
 >> I wasn't looking to start trouble, but I didn't see any discussion of
 >> this on the mailing list so wanted to bring it to the developer
 >> community's attention.
 >>
 >> I attended the NAB conference and went by the "ffmpeg" booth on
 >> Sunday.  What I found was a single table with the official ffmpeg
 >> banner hanging right next to a banner for the GPAC project, and two
 >> salespeople from GPAC handing out marketing literature and trying to
 >> educate me on why I should use their framework for my next project.
 >
 > Thilo did announce that some unidentified party would be payind for 
FFmpeg to hold a booth (this should be visible in the archives). Kieran 
raised legitimate if not concerning questions based on his prior 
experience at NAB.
I announced that "We reiceived an anonymous corporate sponsorship for 
the booth, so there are no costs for the FFmpeg project to it (and no 
obligations, of course)."

Kieran's reaction was raising concerns that he feels donors wouldn't 
want to see their SPI money spend on NAB [1][2] - ignoring that I'd just 
announced that there will be no donor's SPI money needed as there are no 
costs for FFmpeg.

Kieran's reaction further was claiming that no plan has been provided 
who will actually be present on the booth [1][2] - ignoring that I'd 
just announced that "Any FFmpeg developer is welcome to join in and man 
the booth with me".


 > Thilo did not answer, which is inexcusable, especially considering 
that there were several times that the questions were reiterated.
Ignoring what has been said, making statements raising the impression 
that something contradictory would be the truth is trolling me and 
deceiving the other readers. No reason at all to feed the trolls - no 
matter how often the trolling is repeated.


 > Thilo privately called Kieran a "troll" as the lame pretext for not 
answering the question (I can copy the CC privately if proof of this is 
needed).

And I just did publicly, for what I believe his reaction in the FFmpeg 
at NAB 2024 thread was and everyone can read to get their own impression 
in the archives. You think it's a lame pretext? The "questions" had been 
answered even before they were "raised" by Kieran.


 > In light of this, it seemed obvious that the FFmpeg booth would be a 
disaster, pretty much how Kieran had predicted.

In the light of... the costs being covered and me + any other volunteer 
manning the booth as announced or in the light of... the deceiving 
'ignorance' in Kieran's statements?
_Even if_ the coverage of the complete funding and/or manning the booth 
would have been unanswered, how would that have 'obviusly' concluded the 
booth to become a disaster?
That conclusion itself appears not comprehensible.


 > So there you have it. On the bright side, FFmpeg was not footing the 
bill.

I fear FFmpeg has to pay quite a high bill for all the trolling bullshit 
going on about this NAB presence alone.


 > I think everybody can make their own conclusions without me 
speculating or opiniating further, so I will leave it at that.

I very much hope everyone is making up their own opinion.
Even you, who I think is not stupid, obviously was too easily made to 
takeover the 'payment is unclear', 'manning is unclear', 'will become a 
desaster' narrative here.


 >> I'm not saying that GPAC shouldn't be able to have a table at the
 >> conference, but it feels pretty misleading to have an "ffmpeg" booth
 >> listed in the conference materials, with a table prominently
 >> displaying the ffmpeg logo, with zero people from ffmpeg and people
 >> pushing users to use an alternative framework that some might actually
 >> considered to be a competitor to ffmpeg.
 >
 > Agreed. Thanks for your testimony.
And here you are demonstrating again that it appears to be so much 
beloved behavior in our community to hop on the troll train and 
willingly ignore previous statement for the sake to troll on.
You love to ignore what I relied to Devin's mail where to the most 
important part, Devin's impression could be reasonably explained/voided 
to have been a wrong impression (misleading ffmpeg booth without any 
people from ffmpeg) that to my understanding after talking to him, 
doesn't bother him anymore.

You can think about GPAC what you want and if it is a good idea to share 
a booth with them.
My thoughts about it is that we should absorb them into FFmpeg instead 
of splitting resources and efforts. They know that and yet want to share 
a booth with us.
But since they are doing things like DRM we reject doing at FFmpeg, GPAC 
currently is a valid downstream project adding 'value' of some kind to 
their users beyond what FFmpeg can provide.
Not surprising, since we are a library and literally every user will add 
some value on top, make their own project/product out of it and could be 
considered a 'competitor' in that sense.

IMHO, you just added quite some trollish behavior in your own response 
to the NAB discussion instead of productive, fruitful or even useful 
discussion, hurting FFmpeg and yourself.

-Thilo


[1] 
https://lists.ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2023-November/317199.html
[2] 
https://lists.ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2023-November/317214.html

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg table at NAB

[Rémi Denis-Courmont]

Hi,

Thilo is calling Kieran, myself and presumably Derek and JB trolls.

This seems to be a pattern against anyone who disagrees with him.

Le 22 avril 2024 04:25:20 GMT+08:00, Thilo Borgmann via ffmpeg-devel <ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org> a écrit :
>Hi,
>
>On 21.04.24 10:47, Rémi Denis-Courmont wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I have been dragged privately into this issue so for the sake of transparency, I will just sum up my side here.
>>
>>
>> Le 17 avril 2024 07:21:18 GMT+08:00, Devin Heitmueller <devin.heitmueller@ltnglobal.com> a écrit :
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> I wasn't looking to start trouble, but I didn't see any discussion of
>>> this on the mailing list so wanted to bring it to the developer
>>> community's attention.
>>>
>>> I attended the NAB conference and went by the "ffmpeg" booth on
>>> Sunday.  What I found was a single table with the official ffmpeg
>>> banner hanging right next to a banner for the GPAC project, and two
>>> salespeople from GPAC handing out marketing literature and trying to
>>> educate me on why I should use their framework for my next project.
>>
>> Thilo did announce that some unidentified party would be payind for FFmpeg to hold a booth (this should be visible in the archives). Kieran raised legitimate if not concerning questions based on his prior experience at NAB.
>I announced that "We reiceived an anonymous corporate sponsorship for the booth, so there are no costs for the FFmpeg project to it (and no obligations, of course)."
>
>Kieran's reaction was raising concerns that he feels donors wouldn't want to see their SPI money spend on NAB [1][2] - ignoring that I'd just announced that there will be no donor's SPI money needed as there are no costs for FFmpeg.
>
>Kieran's reaction further was claiming that no plan has been provided who will actually be present on the booth [1][2] - ignoring that I'd just announced that "Any FFmpeg developer is welcome to join in and man the booth with me".
>
>
>> Thilo did not answer, which is inexcusable, especially considering that there were several times that the questions were reiterated.
>Ignoring what has been said, making statements raising the impression that something contradictory would be the truth is trolling me and deceiving the other readers. No reason at all to feed the trolls - no matter how often the trolling is repeated.
>
>
>> Thilo privately called Kieran a "troll" as the lame pretext for not answering the question (I can copy the CC privately if proof of this is needed).
>
>And I just did publicly, for what I believe his reaction in the FFmpeg at NAB 2024 thread was and everyone can read to get their own impression in the archives. You think it's a lame pretext? The "questions" had been answered even before they were "raised" by Kieran.
>
>
>> In light of this, it seemed obvious that the FFmpeg booth would be a disaster, pretty much how Kieran had predicted.
>
>In the light of... the costs being covered and me + any other volunteer manning the booth as announced or in the light of... the deceiving 'ignorance' in Kieran's statements?
>_Even if_ the coverage of the complete funding and/or manning the booth would have been unanswered, how would that have 'obviusly' concluded the booth to become a disaster?
>That conclusion itself appears not comprehensible.
>
>
>> So there you have it. On the bright side, FFmpeg was not footing the bill.
>
>I fear FFmpeg has to pay quite a high bill for all the trolling bullshit going on about this NAB presence alone.
>
>
>> I think everybody can make their own conclusions without me speculating or opiniating further, so I will leave it at that.
>
>I very much hope everyone is making up their own opinion.
>Even you, who I think is not stupid, obviously was too easily made to takeover the 'payment is unclear', 'manning is unclear', 'will become a desaster' narrative here.
>
>
>>> I'm not saying that GPAC shouldn't be able to have a table at the
>>> conference, but it feels pretty misleading to have an "ffmpeg" booth
>>> listed in the conference materials, with a table prominently
>>> displaying the ffmpeg logo, with zero people from ffmpeg and people
>>> pushing users to use an alternative framework that some might actually
>>> considered to be a competitor to ffmpeg.
>>
>> Agreed. Thanks for your testimony.
>And here you are demonstrating again that it appears to be so much beloved behavior in our community to hop on the troll train and willingly ignore previous statement for the sake to troll on.
>You love to ignore what I relied to Devin's mail where to the most important part, Devin's impression could be reasonably explained/voided to have been a wrong impression (misleading ffmpeg booth without any people from ffmpeg) that to my understanding after talking to him, doesn't bother him anymore.
>
>You can think about GPAC what you want and if it is a good idea to share a booth with them.
>My thoughts about it is that we should absorb them into FFmpeg instead of splitting resources and efforts. They know that and yet want to share a booth with us.
>But since they are doing things like DRM we reject doing at FFmpeg, GPAC currently is a valid downstream project adding 'value' of some kind to their users beyond what FFmpeg can provide.
>Not surprising, since we are a library and literally every user will add some value on top, make their own project/product out of it and could be considered a 'competitor' in that sense.
>
>IMHO, you just added quite some trollish behavior in your own response to the NAB discussion instead of productive, fruitful or even useful discussion, hurting FFmpeg and yourself.
>
>-Thilo
>
>
>[1] https://lists.ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2023-November/317199.html
>[2] https://lists.ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2023-November/317214.html
>
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] FFmpeg table at NAB

[Thilo Borgmann via ffmpeg-devel]

Hi,

> Thilo is calling Kieran, myself and presumably Derek and JB trolls.
> 
> This seems to be a pattern against anyone who disagrees with him.

please avoid top-posting on this list [1].

-Thilo

[1] https://ffmpeg.org/mailing-list-faq.html#What-is-top_002dposting_003f-1


> Le 22 avril 2024 04:25:20 GMT+08:00, Thilo Borgmann via ffmpeg-devel <ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org> a écrit :
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 21.04.24 10:47, Rémi Denis-Courmont wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have been dragged privately into this issue so for the sake of transparency, I will just sum up my side here.
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 17 avril 2024 07:21:18 GMT+08:00, Devin Heitmueller <devin.heitmueller@ltnglobal.com> a écrit :
>>>> Hello all,
>>>>
>>>> I wasn't looking to start trouble, but I didn't see any discussion of
>>>> this on the mailing list so wanted to bring it to the developer
>>>> community's attention.
>>>>
>>>> I attended the NAB conference and went by the "ffmpeg" booth on
>>>> Sunday.  What I found was a single table with the official ffmpeg
>>>> banner hanging right next to a banner for the GPAC project, and two
>>>> salespeople from GPAC handing out marketing literature and trying to
>>>> educate me on why I should use their framework for my next project.
>>>
>>> Thilo did announce that some unidentified party would be payind for FFmpeg to hold a booth (this should be visible in the archives). Kieran raised legitimate if not concerning questions based on his prior experience at NAB.
>> I announced that "We reiceived an anonymous corporate sponsorship for the booth, so there are no costs for the FFmpeg project to it (and no obligations, of course)."
>>
>> Kieran's reaction was raising concerns that he feels donors wouldn't want to see their SPI money spend on NAB [1][2] - ignoring that I'd just announced that there will be no donor's SPI money needed as there are no costs for FFmpeg.
>>
>> Kieran's reaction further was claiming that no plan has been provided who will actually be present on the booth [1][2] - ignoring that I'd just announced that "Any FFmpeg developer is welcome to join in and man the booth with me".
>>
>>
>>> Thilo did not answer, which is inexcusable, especially considering that there were several times that the questions were reiterated.
>> Ignoring what has been said, making statements raising the impression that something contradictory would be the truth is trolling me and deceiving the other readers. No reason at all to feed the trolls - no matter how often the trolling is repeated.
>>
>>
>>> Thilo privately called Kieran a "troll" as the lame pretext for not answering the question (I can copy the CC privately if proof of this is needed).
>>
>> And I just did publicly, for what I believe his reaction in the FFmpeg at NAB 2024 thread was and everyone can read to get their own impression in the archives. You think it's a lame pretext? The "questions" had been answered even before they were "raised" by Kieran.
>>
>>
>>> In light of this, it seemed obvious that the FFmpeg booth would be a disaster, pretty much how Kieran had predicted.
>>
>> In the light of... the costs being covered and me + any other volunteer manning the booth as announced or in the light of... the deceiving 'ignorance' in Kieran's statements?
>> _Even if_ the coverage of the complete funding and/or manning the booth would have been unanswered, how would that have 'obviusly' concluded the booth to become a disaster?
>> That conclusion itself appears not comprehensible.
>>
>>
>>> So there you have it. On the bright side, FFmpeg was not footing the bill.
>>
>> I fear FFmpeg has to pay quite a high bill for all the trolling bullshit going on about this NAB presence alone.
>>
>>
>>> I think everybody can make their own conclusions without me speculating or opiniating further, so I will leave it at that.
>>
>> I very much hope everyone is making up their own opinion.
>> Even you, who I think is not stupid, obviously was too easily made to takeover the 'payment is unclear', 'manning is unclear', 'will become a desaster' narrative here.
>>
>>
>>>> I'm not saying that GPAC shouldn't be able to have a table at the
>>>> conference, but it feels pretty misleading to have an "ffmpeg" booth
>>>> listed in the conference materials, with a table prominently
>>>> displaying the ffmpeg logo, with zero people from ffmpeg and people
>>>> pushing users to use an alternative framework that some might actually
>>>> considered to be a competitor to ffmpeg.
>>>
>>> Agreed. Thanks for your testimony.
>> And here you are demonstrating again that it appears to be so much beloved behavior in our community to hop on the troll train and willingly ignore previous statement for the sake to troll on.
>> You love to ignore what I relied to Devin's mail where to the most important part, Devin's impression could be reasonably explained/voided to have been a wrong impression (misleading ffmpeg booth without any people from ffmpeg) that to my understanding after talking to him, doesn't bother him anymore.
>>
>> You can think about GPAC what you want and if it is a good idea to share a booth with them.
>> My thoughts about it is that we should absorb them into FFmpeg instead of splitting resources and efforts. They know that and yet want to share a booth with us.
>> But since they are doing things like DRM we reject doing at FFmpeg, GPAC currently is a valid downstream project adding 'value' of some kind to their users beyond what FFmpeg can provide.
>> Not surprising, since we are a library and literally every user will add some value on top, make their own project/product out of it and could be considered a 'competitor' in that sense.
>>
>> IMHO, you just added quite some trollish behavior in your own response to the NAB discussion instead of productive, fruitful or even useful discussion, hurting FFmpeg and yourself.
>>
>> -Thilo
>>
>>
>> [1] https://lists.ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2023-November/317199.html
>> [2] https://lists.ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2023-November/317214.html
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ffmpeg-devel mailing list
>> ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org
>> https://ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-devel
>>
>> To unsubscribe, visit link above, or email
>> ffmpeg-devel-request@ffmpeg.org with subject "unsubscribe".
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[FFmpeg-devel] Cease and desist

[Rémi Denis-Courmont]

To whom it may concern.

Stop your harassment and withdraw your public insults against my person.

In light of prompt action from the Cc, I reserve any and all legal avenues against Thilo Borgmann.

Le 24 avril 2024 09:07:43 GMT+03:00, Thilo Borgmann via ffmpeg-devel <ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org> a écrit :
>Hi,
>
>> Thilo is calling Kieran, myself and presumably Derek and JB trolls.
>> 
>> This seems to be a pattern against anyone who disagrees with him.
>
>please avoid top-posting on this list [1].
>
>-Thilo
>
>[1] https://ffmpeg.org/mailing-list-faq.html#What-is-top_002dposting_003f-1
>
>
>> Le 22 avril 2024 04:25:20 GMT+08:00, Thilo Borgmann via ffmpeg-devel <ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org> a écrit :
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> On 21.04.24 10:47, Rémi Denis-Courmont wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> 
>>>> I have been dragged privately into this issue so for the sake of transparency, I will just sum up my side here.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Le 17 avril 2024 07:21:18 GMT+08:00, Devin Heitmueller <devin.heitmueller@ltnglobal.com> a écrit :
>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I wasn't looking to start trouble, but I didn't see any discussion of
>>>>> this on the mailing list so wanted to bring it to the developer
>>>>> community's attention.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I attended the NAB conference and went by the "ffmpeg" booth on
>>>>> Sunday.  What I found was a single table with the official ffmpeg
>>>>> banner hanging right next to a banner for the GPAC project, and two
>>>>> salespeople from GPAC handing out marketing literature and trying to
>>>>> educate me on why I should use their framework for my next project.
>>>> 
>>>> Thilo did announce that some unidentified party would be payind for FFmpeg to hold a booth (this should be visible in the archives). Kieran raised legitimate if not concerning questions based on his prior experience at NAB.
>>> I announced that "We reiceived an anonymous corporate sponsorship for the booth, so there are no costs for the FFmpeg project to it (and no obligations, of course)."
>>> 
>>> Kieran's reaction was raising concerns that he feels donors wouldn't want to see their SPI money spend on NAB [1][2] - ignoring that I'd just announced that there will be no donor's SPI money needed as there are no costs for FFmpeg.
>>> 
>>> Kieran's reaction further was claiming that no plan has been provided who will actually be present on the booth [1][2] - ignoring that I'd just announced that "Any FFmpeg developer is welcome to join in and man the booth with me".
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Thilo did not answer, which is inexcusable, especially considering that there were several times that the questions were reiterated.
>>> Ignoring what has been said, making statements raising the impression that something contradictory would be the truth is trolling me and deceiving the other readers. No reason at all to feed the trolls - no matter how often the trolling is repeated.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Thilo privately called Kieran a "troll" as the lame pretext for not answering the question (I can copy the CC privately if proof of this is needed).
>>> 
>>> And I just did publicly, for what I believe his reaction in the FFmpeg at NAB 2024 thread was and everyone can read to get their own impression in the archives. You think it's a lame pretext? The "questions" had been answered even before they were "raised" by Kieran.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> In light of this, it seemed obvious that the FFmpeg booth would be a disaster, pretty much how Kieran had predicted.
>>> 
>>> In the light of... the costs being covered and me + any other volunteer manning the booth as announced or in the light of... the deceiving 'ignorance' in Kieran's statements?
>>> _Even if_ the coverage of the complete funding and/or manning the booth would have been unanswered, how would that have 'obviusly' concluded the booth to become a disaster?
>>> That conclusion itself appears not comprehensible.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> So there you have it. On the bright side, FFmpeg was not footing the bill.
>>> 
>>> I fear FFmpeg has to pay quite a high bill for all the trolling bullshit going on about this NAB presence alone.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> I think everybody can make their own conclusions without me speculating or opiniating further, so I will leave it at that.
>>> 
>>> I very much hope everyone is making up their own opinion.
>>> Even you, who I think is not stupid, obviously was too easily made to takeover the 'payment is unclear', 'manning is unclear', 'will become a desaster' narrative here.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> I'm not saying that GPAC shouldn't be able to have a table at the
>>>>> conference, but it feels pretty misleading to have an "ffmpeg" booth
>>>>> listed in the conference materials, with a table prominently
>>>>> displaying the ffmpeg logo, with zero people from ffmpeg and people
>>>>> pushing users to use an alternative framework that some might actually
>>>>> considered to be a competitor to ffmpeg.
>>>> 
>>>> Agreed. Thanks for your testimony.
>>> And here you are demonstrating again that it appears to be so much beloved behavior in our community to hop on the troll train and willingly ignore previous statement for the sake to troll on.
>>> You love to ignore what I relied to Devin's mail where to the most important part, Devin's impression could be reasonably explained/voided to have been a wrong impression (misleading ffmpeg booth without any people from ffmpeg) that to my understanding after talking to him, doesn't bother him anymore.
>>> 
>>> You can think about GPAC what you want and if it is a good idea to share a booth with them.
>>> My thoughts about it is that we should absorb them into FFmpeg instead of splitting resources and efforts. They know that and yet want to share a booth with us.
>>> But since they are doing things like DRM we reject doing at FFmpeg, GPAC currently is a valid downstream project adding 'value' of some kind to their users beyond what FFmpeg can provide.
>>> Not surprising, since we are a library and literally every user will add some value on top, make their own project/product out of it and could be considered a 'competitor' in that sense.
>>> 
>>> IMHO, you just added quite some trollish behavior in your own response to the NAB discussion instead of productive, fruitful or even useful discussion, hurting FFmpeg and yourself.
>>> 
>>> -Thilo
>>> 
>>> 
>>> [1] https://lists.ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2023-November/317199.html
>>> [2] https://lists.ffmpeg.org/pipermail/ffmpeg-devel/2023-November/317214.html
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ffmpeg-devel mailing list
>>> ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org
>>> https://ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-devel
>>> 
>>> To unsubscribe, visit link above, or email
>>> ffmpeg-devel-request@ffmpeg.org with subject "unsubscribe".
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>> 
>> To unsubscribe, visit link above, or email
>> ffmpeg-devel-request@ffmpeg.org with subject "unsubscribe".
>
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