From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from ffbox0-bg.ffmpeg.org (ffbox0-bg.ffmpeg.org [79.124.17.100]) by master.gitmailbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1911A4F5E7 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 03:55:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.1.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ffbox0-bg.ffmpeg.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BDF268D61A; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 06:55:32 +0300 (EEST) Received: from relay6-d.mail.gandi.net (relay6-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.198]) by ffbox0-bg.ffmpeg.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D56E468D486 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 06:55:25 +0300 (EEST) Received: by mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0549544267 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 2025 03:55:24 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=niedermayer.cc; s=gm1; t=1750218925; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=glXUynGRc+c7dcn3VYg2ftJLLJeV8rY/J12ESdgmTDg=; b=AKy4feBOZL1RaF6eSoAqUNUiBiOlZyAjYS6apI/ucI6Q7V2o932IAOWez8QswAl1MIwtBZ FLqiwlbTYV9WHnBqsUrDYpEjXvJ0SYH8NO2GTbQac5rbw/rXp08aP18HzVmBHe6X7XMgoB RFTiFhVzRyA3vySbzO9nihjWvfNZicldpgMCyZLNTVopMFsxuw9QfoEU2SXwsJelInUmT8 SMktj15X2bcRyHbOGgowPIXJubkFFpOTBTIlipPQUQkLNm69Gj883iNgGHrQ4u9sxthjTa x5QxMfBx1u+Wx0zeol/sr/qt823czi2zD42GoUfq1doffgLrezY0WINHe6UR8g== Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2025 05:55:24 +0200 From: Michael Niedermayer To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches Message-ID: <20250618035524.GO29660@pb2> References: <19ff1126f1e93cdb4fdcf50fee499c02c5e85ea7.camel@haerdin.se> <20250613142118.GC29660@pb2> <4b2e369b5c72b6b9933acbb1af3158c4cce6e36d.camel@haerdin.se> <20250613161941.GD29660@pb2> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-GND-State: clean X-GND-Score: -70 X-GND-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeffedrtddvgdduledvucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuifetpfffkfdpucggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvnecuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddunecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenfghrlhcuvffnffculdeftddmnecujfgurhepfffhvffukfhfgggtuggjsehgtderredttddunecuhfhrohhmpefoihgthhgrvghlucfpihgvuggvrhhmrgihvghruceomhhitghhrggvlhesnhhivgguvghrmhgrhigvrhdrtggtqeenucggtffrrghtthgvrhhnpedutedvhfduuedugedufefghefhvedvgffgffekhfdvgfdvtefftdejkeehteefheenucfkphepgedurdeiiedrieejrdduudefnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehinhgvthepgedurdeiiedrieejrdduudefpdhhvghloheplhhotggrlhhhohhsthdpmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmihgthhgrvghlsehnihgvuggvrhhmrgihvghrrdgttgdpnhgspghrtghpthhtohepuddprhgtphhtthhopehffhhmphgvghdquggvvhgvlhesfhhfmhhpvghgrdhorhhg X-GND-Sasl: michael@niedermayer.cc Subject: Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [RFC] Moving edit list handling out of demuxers X-BeenThere: ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FFmpeg development discussions and patches List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1128209679292087582==" Errors-To: ffmpeg-devel-bounces@ffmpeg.org Sender: "ffmpeg-devel" Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Post: --===============1128209679292087582== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vUm53ya8yuwWuQek" Content-Disposition: inline --vUm53ya8yuwWuQek Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Tomas On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 11:15:25PM +0200, Tomas H=E4rdin wrote: > fre 2025-06-13 klockan 18:19 +0200 skrev Michael Niedermayer: [...] > > > > > The main issue I see with this is that it risks turning ffmpeg > > > > > into > > > > > an > > > > > NLE tool, > > > >=20 > > > > If ffmpeg could do NLE, that would not be a bad thing > > > > And a full implementation of edit lists may be equivalent to > > > > this. > > > > I think thats a win not a loss > > >=20 > > > Fair enough. So long as I don't have to implement it or think > > > particularly much about it. > >=20 > > it will be needed to think about "if its possible" to implement > > during API design > >=20 > > That said if > > * proper edit list implementation is bascially NLE support > >=20 > > Then not only is it alot of work, it also allows us to attract a new > > group of developers and users >=20 > *We* shouldn't necessarily be attracting them. Libre multimedia is more > than just FFmpeg. It is better to focus NLE efforts on melt. Projects grow or they shrink there is no standing still. Not attracting new developers is madness and would be the end of FFmpeg. We all surely realize we are mostly a bunch of old man, we do need new developers. > We can If we dont have developers or maintainers we can do nothing What you suggest or hint toward to me, in plain english sounds like, drop the ffmpeg command line tool because it would otherwise need to have NLE support. Do a vote about this, if you belive people support a ffmpeg that doesnt support mov/mp4 My way is forward, a streaming server (IF there are people who want to work on it), NLE (IF there are people who want to work on it) anything else multimedia related (IF there are people who want to work = on it) If the community chooses not to move forward even though it would be a lower effort to move forward. Then I clearly am in the wrong community. [...] > FFmpeg's architecture is wholly unsuitable for NLE work. That way lies > madness. This becomes apparent when looking at melt. I suggest more > devs take a look at it. Just move toward a full implementation of edit lists, and you have done everything i ask for. If we dont implement full edit list support, then we should not pretend 1. ffmpeg even supports mov or mp4 (and thats the end of ffmpeg.) 2. that this could replace the hacks in the demuxer Again theres no standing still. either FFmpeg grows or it shrinks and if it shrinks it will die. Iam NOT asking anyone to compete with or replace any NLE tool. That may or may not happen as a sideffect. Now technically, for edit list support you need at minimum 1. demuxers exporting metadata, 2. muxers importing it 3. a way to apply a edit list, so mov (with edit list) -> mov (without edi= t list) works There are 2 cases here, one with a decoder and encoder and one without. the first must always work the 2nd only sometimes and this 2nd one is equivalent to our hacks more or less. Whats optional: 4. export and import edit lists in a json format or something like that, allow the user to make changes 1-4 =3D=3D basic NLE support, yes theres UI, intermediate formats, caches, transitions and and and, but for basic NLE support 1-4 is whats needed now i probbaly missed something but the technical details where not the point of my mail anyway. also iam wrting this after 5am so probably i missed something or said somet= hing dumb :) thx [...] --=20 Michael GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB Whats the most studid thing your enemy could do ? Blow himself up Whats the most studid thing you could do ? Give up your rights and freedom because your enemy blew himself up. --vUm53ya8yuwWuQek Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iF0EABEKAB0WIQSf8hKLFH72cwut8TNhHseHBAsPqwUCaFI4qAAKCRBhHseHBAsP q4tLAKCE+z867B8ngK5+GjKzIvZrsdRVRwCfRL+nMH9YtJ9gtLX5rgqJA9K5WPw= =rZW7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vUm53ya8yuwWuQek-- --===============1128209679292087582== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ ffmpeg-devel mailing list ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org https://ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-devel To unsubscribe, visit link above, or email ffmpeg-devel-request@ffmpeg.org with subject "unsubscribe". --===============1128209679292087582==--