Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [RFC] Moving edit list handling out of demuxers

[Michael Niedermayer <michael@niedermayer.cc>]

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Hi Tomas

On Tue, Jun 17, 2025 at 11:15:25PM +0200, Tomas Härdin wrote:
> fre 2025-06-13 klockan 18:19 +0200 skrev Michael Niedermayer:
[...]
> > > > > The main issue I see with this is that it risks turning ffmpeg
> > > > > into
> > > > > an
> > > > > NLE tool,
> > > > 
> > > > If ffmpeg could do NLE, that would not be a bad thing
> > > > And a full implementation of edit lists may be equivalent to
> > > > this.
> > > > I think thats a win not a loss
> > > 
> > > Fair enough. So long as I don't have to implement it or think
> > > particularly much about it.
> > 
> > it will be needed to think about "if its possible" to implement
> > during API design
> > 
> > That said if
> > * proper edit list implementation is bascially NLE support
> > 
> > Then not only is it alot of work, it also allows us to attract a new
> > group of developers and users
> 
> *We* shouldn't necessarily be attracting them. Libre multimedia is more
> than just FFmpeg. It is better to focus NLE efforts on melt.

Projects grow or they shrink there is no standing still.

Not attracting new developers is madness and would be the end of FFmpeg.
We all surely realize we are mostly a bunch of old man, we do need new
developers.


> We can

If we dont have developers or maintainers we can do nothing

What you suggest or hint toward to me, in plain english sounds like,
drop the ffmpeg command line tool because it would otherwise need to have
NLE support.
Do a vote about this, if you belive people support a ffmpeg that
doesnt support mov/mp4

My way is forward,
    a streaming server (IF there are people who want to work on it),
    NLE (IF there are people who want to work on it)
    anything else multimedia related (IF there are people who want to work on it)

If the community chooses not to move forward even though it would be a
lower effort to move forward. Then I clearly am in the wrong community.


[...]

> FFmpeg's architecture is wholly unsuitable for NLE work. That way lies
> madness. This becomes apparent when looking at melt. I suggest more
> devs take a look at it.

Just move toward a full implementation of edit lists, and you have done
everything i ask for.

If we dont implement full edit list support, then we should not pretend
    1. ffmpeg even supports mov or mp4 (and thats the end of ffmpeg.)
    2. that this could replace the hacks in the demuxer

Again theres no standing still. either FFmpeg grows or it shrinks
and if it shrinks it will die.

Iam NOT asking anyone to compete with or replace any NLE tool.
That may or may not happen as a sideffect.

Now technically, for edit list support you need at minimum
1. demuxers exporting metadata,
2. muxers importing it
3. a way to apply a edit list, so mov (with edit list) ->  mov (without edit list)
   works
   There are 2 cases here, one with a decoder and encoder and one without.
   the first must always work the 2nd only sometimes and this 2nd one is
   equivalent to our hacks more or less.
Whats optional:
4. export and import edit lists in a json format or something like that,
   allow the user to make changes

1-4 == basic NLE support,
yes theres UI, intermediate formats, caches, transitions and and and, but
for basic NLE support 1-4 is whats needed

now i probbaly missed something but the technical details where not the
point of my mail anyway.
also iam wrting this after 5am so probably i missed something or said something
dumb :)

thx

[...]

-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

Whats the most studid thing your enemy could do ? Blow himself up
Whats the most studid thing you could do ? Give up your rights and
freedom because your enemy blew himself up.


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