From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from ffbox0-bg.mplayerhq.hu (ffbox0-bg.ffmpeg.org [79.124.17.100]) by master.gitmailbox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DE434901B for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 12:31:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.1.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ffbox0-bg.mplayerhq.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1785868CBD3; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 14:31:04 +0200 (EET) Received: from mail0.khirnov.net (red.khirnov.net [176.97.15.12]) by ffbox0-bg.mplayerhq.hu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DD3C68BEC2 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 14:30:58 +0200 (EET) Authentication-Results: mail0.khirnov.net; dkim=pass (2048-bit key; unprotected) header.d=khirnov.net header.i=@khirnov.net header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=mail header.b=Npoe3zBb; dkim-atps=neutral Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mail0.khirnov.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4120F2405F2 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 13:30:57 +0100 (CET) Received: from mail0.khirnov.net ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (mail0.khirnov.net [IPv6:::1]) (amavis, port 10024) with ESMTP id lsjdaIj0WTxe for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 13:30:56 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=khirnov.net; s=mail; t=1706704256; bh=j7DjZPNAl2MNl0bFvRdVutGTss9ajsgn0TM9rdm7rCw=; h=Subject:From:To:In-Reply-To:References:Date:From; b=Npoe3zBb/dmEGrFIJZtElvnMGs5anH1quA3Jf9MtxTJPQNLOqiD/lOzpB8PRI+OL3 hoOE4pTSDuAx5DsNCT/VexSWSZarI8y5Tk0rtY3SNNsXgeHoxtbLnD1Z13V9Lrnq8w TsHha4uIJHKZSdVmE2l+BJPymzSDDZEeTLUW4XOukIc3JKt/+7pfoPYOkNq9d7Iw90 394qi/a1QHEn0JsiQ68gjQSM11sEUz6/TLrr+O22qB56fYqkfpjUe/QzYJuVKeSJK8 qKlMbQ8uZ6oUHmwzNIu9jQMMzNXKnUkPInxvieH4E7r17wg807/hh6D8LmSvFiHrcn slHGWSSjTj2EA== Received: from lain.khirnov.net (lain.khirnov.net [IPv6:2001:67c:1138:4306::3]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "lain.khirnov.net", Issuer "smtp.khirnov.net SMTP CA" (verified OK)) by mail0.khirnov.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BB392404E5 for ; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 13:30:56 +0100 (CET) Received: by lain.khirnov.net (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 5F68F1601B9; Wed, 31 Jan 2024 13:30:50 +0100 (CET) From: Anton Khirnov To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches In-Reply-To: References: <20240128032549.GN6420@pb2> <170656270992.8914.17597847459142276038@lain.khirnov.net> Mail-Followup-To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 13:30:50 +0100 Message-ID: <170670425036.8914.15189015352946522304@lain.khirnov.net> User-Agent: alot/0.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Sovereign Tech Fund X-BeenThere: ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: FFmpeg development discussions and patches List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Reply-To: FFmpeg development discussions and patches Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Errors-To: ffmpeg-devel-bounces@ffmpeg.org Sender: "ffmpeg-devel" Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Post: Quoting Stefano Sabatini (2024-01-30 00:53:25) > On date Monday 2024-01-29 22:11:49 +0100, Anton Khirnov wrote: > > Quoting Michael Niedermayer (2024-01-28 04:25:49) > > > There can be no late objections here to any project suggestions. > > > Objections must be before a project suggestion is submitted to STF, > > > objections after that cannot be considered! > > > > Self-imposed restrictions like these at the very least need a GA vote > > IMO. > > > > > Also once the person doing the work reaches the agreed milestone. > > > She will submit an invoice with stefano and my help to SPI/STF. > > > (in the unlikely case of a dispute on reaching a milestone > > > it would be decided by the technical committee if the milestone > > > has been reached from FFmpegs point of view) > > > > Unlikely? I believe you are overlooking and/or trivializing the most > > serious problems that need to be addressed before we can submit any > > applications and not have it end in disaster. > > > > These are, IMO: > > The following are good points, I propose some possible solutions. I > think these should be based on the assumptions that failure can > occurr, and the system should be designed to be robust to failures. > > > 1) How does the project protect itself from pre-approving some code that > > does not exist yet? This is not just some theoretical danger, it's > > easily possible that some project sounds good in theory, but actually > > implementing it comes with so many gotchas and caveats that it ends > > up being not worth it. Or there are fundamental technical > > disagreements about the specific way it's been implemented. Both > > cases exist in our history. > > The design and investigative work should be covered as part of the > SOW. In other words, the SOW should also cover the preliminary design > and experimentation. In case it leads to no committable work (which is > unlikely but not impossible), the output should be a document/report > documenting the result of the initial investigation, and the project > might be aborted at that point. > > This should protect both the developer and the project. In each case > it should be assumed that the final result of the investigation would > not lead to committable deliverables, but to design documents which > might lay the foundation of further work (possibly in a different > direction). That might be a viable direction, but it does not really solve the problem. Initial investigation only gets you so far and some issues simply do not become apparent until quite far in the development process. E.g. my recent threading work (that keeps getting mentioned in this thread as an example of what a cleanup project could look like) was largely composed of many "sub-projects", each disentangling a speficic feature or area. And there was no reliable way to predict in advance whether a given sub-project would take two hours or two weeks. -- Anton Khirnov _______________________________________________ ffmpeg-devel mailing list ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org https://ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-devel To unsubscribe, visit link above, or email ffmpeg-devel-request@ffmpeg.org with subject "unsubscribe".