[FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Anton Khirnov]

Hi all,
as previously discussed, we need to re-elect the members of the
Technical and Community Committees. As a reminder - the Technical
Committee (TC) resolves technical disputes, while the Community
Committee (CC) resolves personal conflicts and code of conduct
violations.

Anyone can become a member of either committee - they do not need to be
in GA (i.e. have voting rights). One person can also be a member of both
committees at once.

The vote should start the Monday after the previous vote (extra GA
members) finishes - that should be either 2023-11-20 or 2023-11-27 -
giving us two or three weeks for discussion and proposing candidates.

The candidates so far are:
  * TC:
    - Jan Ekström
    - Anton Khirnov
    - Lynne
    - Martin Storsjö
    - Niklas Haas
    - Michael Niedermayer
    - Mark Thompson
  * CC:
    - Dave Rice (IIUC it was somebody else who suggested him, so he'd
      need to be asked whether he wants the position)
    - James Almer
    - Jean-Baptiste Kempf
    - Thilo Borgmann
    - Steven Liu
    - Ronald Bultje
    - Anton Khirnov

(proposed at VDD as per Kyle's notes; I've also added myself as a CC
candidate).

Anyone else wishing to volunteer for TC or CC, please reply to this
email.

Other constructive comments also welcome.

Cheers,
-- 
Anton Khirnov
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Vittorio Giovara]

On Sun, Nov 5, 2023 at 5:02 AM Anton Khirnov <anton@khirnov.net> wrote:

> Hi all,
> as previously discussed, we need to re-elect the members of the
> Technical and Community Committees. As a reminder - the Technical
> Committee (TC) resolves technical disputes, while the Community
> Committee (CC) resolves personal conflicts and code of conduct
> violations.
>
> Anyone can become a member of either committee - they do not need to be
> in GA (i.e. have voting rights). One person can also be a member of both
> committees at once.
>
> The vote should start the Monday after the previous vote (extra GA
> members) finishes - that should be either 2023-11-20 or 2023-11-27 -
> giving us two or three weeks for discussion and proposing candidates.
>
> The candidates so far are:
>   * TC:
>     - Jan Ekström
>     - Anton Khirnov
>     - Lynne
>     - Martin Storsjö
>     - Niklas Haas
>     - Michael Niedermayer
>     - Mark Thompson
>   * CC:
>     - Dave Rice (IIUC it was somebody else who suggested him, so he'd
>       need to be asked whether he wants the position)
>     - James Almer
>     - Jean-Baptiste Kempf
>     - Thilo Borgmann
>     - Steven Liu
>     - Ronald Bultje
>     - Anton Khirnov
>
> (proposed at VDD as per Kyle's notes; I've also added myself as a CC
> candidate).
>
> Anyone else wishing to volunteer for TC or CC, please reply to this
> email.
>

Could I volunteer as well for CC?
Thanks
-- 
Vittorio
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Anton Khirnov]

Quoting Vittorio Giovara (2023-11-06 21:06:50)
> Could I volunteer as well for CC?

Certainly, anyone willing to do the work is welcome.

Cheers,
-- 
Anton Khirnov
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Rémi Denis-Courmont]

Le sunnuntaina 5. marraskuuta 2023, 12.02.05 EET Anton Khirnov a écrit :
> Anyone else wishing to volunteer for TC or CC, please reply to this
> email.

I hereby "volunteer" for the CC.

For those who don't know me, I am a research engineer in system software 
working for a large telecommunication equipment vendor. (My work is mostly 
proprietary, but I also have contributions to QEMU and academic publishing.)

I have over twenty years experience in the open-source ecosystem. I am a 
maintainer for VLC and (nominally) for the Linux kernel, and the other people 
involved with VideoLAN here know that I am anything but a yes-person for JB.

Lets build back better an FFmpeg community. Vote Denis-Courmont.

-- 
雷米‧德尼-库尔蒙
http://www.remlab.net/



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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Michael Niedermayer]

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On Sun, Nov 05, 2023 at 11:02:05AM +0100, Anton Khirnov wrote:
> Hi all,
> as previously discussed, we need to re-elect the members of the
> Technical and Community Committees. As a reminder - the Technical
> Committee (TC) resolves technical disputes, while the Community
> Committee (CC) resolves personal conflicts and code of conduct
> violations.
> 
> Anyone can become a member of either committee - they do not need to be
> in GA (i.e. have voting rights). One person can also be a member of both
> committees at once.
> 
> The vote should start the Monday after the previous vote (extra GA
> members) finishes - that should be either 2023-11-20 or 2023-11-27 -
> giving us two or three weeks for discussion and proposing candidates.
> 
> The candidates so far are:
>   * TC:
>     - Jan Ekström
>     - Anton Khirnov
>     - Lynne
>     - Martin Storsjö
>     - Niklas Haas
>     - Michael Niedermayer
>     - Mark Thompson
>   * CC:
>     - Dave Rice (IIUC it was somebody else who suggested him, so he'd
>       need to be asked whether he wants the position)
>     - James Almer
>     - Jean-Baptiste Kempf
>     - Thilo Borgmann
>     - Steven Liu
>     - Ronald Bultje
>     - Anton Khirnov
> 
> (proposed at VDD as per Kyle's notes; I've also added myself as a CC
> candidate).
> 
> Anyone else wishing to volunteer for TC or CC, please reply to this
> email.

So many people want to join the CC and ive forwarded so many insults
to the CC with no reaction and no improvment. So i guess if I complain
that the CC isnt doing its job, i guess i must at least volunteer
to do the job better.
So here is my candidacy, vote for me, i lack sozial skills but
i recognize an insult when i see one and i can ban people if a friendly
private reminder is "misunderstood" repeatedly (IFF i have the authority to do that)

thx

[...]
-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

The day soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped 
leading them. They have either lost confidence that you can help or concluded 
you do not care. Either case is a failure of leadership. - Colin Powell

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[James Almer]

On 11/11/2023 3:34 PM, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 05, 2023 at 11:02:05AM +0100, Anton Khirnov wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> as previously discussed, we need to re-elect the members of the
>> Technical and Community Committees. As a reminder - the Technical
>> Committee (TC) resolves technical disputes, while the Community
>> Committee (CC) resolves personal conflicts and code of conduct
>> violations.
>>
>> Anyone can become a member of either committee - they do not need to be
>> in GA (i.e. have voting rights). One person can also be a member of both
>> committees at once.
>>
>> The vote should start the Monday after the previous vote (extra GA
>> members) finishes - that should be either 2023-11-20 or 2023-11-27 -
>> giving us two or three weeks for discussion and proposing candidates.
>>
>> The candidates so far are:
>>    * TC:
>>      - Jan Ekström
>>      - Anton Khirnov
>>      - Lynne
>>      - Martin Storsjö
>>      - Niklas Haas
>>      - Michael Niedermayer
>>      - Mark Thompson
>>    * CC:
>>      - Dave Rice (IIUC it was somebody else who suggested him, so he'd
>>        need to be asked whether he wants the position)
>>      - James Almer
>>      - Jean-Baptiste Kempf
>>      - Thilo Borgmann
>>      - Steven Liu
>>      - Ronald Bultje
>>      - Anton Khirnov
>>
>> (proposed at VDD as per Kyle's notes; I've also added myself as a CC
>> candidate).
>>
>> Anyone else wishing to volunteer for TC or CC, please reply to this
>> email.
> 
> So many people want to join the CC and ive forwarded so many insults
> to the CC with no reaction and no improvment. So i guess if I complain
> that the CC isnt doing its job, i guess i must at least volunteer
> to do the job better.
> So here is my candidacy, vote for me, i lack sozial skills but
> i recognize an insult when i see one and i can ban people if a friendly
> private reminder is "misunderstood" repeatedly (IFF i have the authority to do that)

If the CC is not acting it's because we're trying to get a new one 
formed. But the voting keeps being postponed because of seemingly 
endless bikeshedding.
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Michael Niedermayer]

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On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 03:37:38PM -0300, James Almer wrote:
> On 11/11/2023 3:34 PM, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> > On Sun, Nov 05, 2023 at 11:02:05AM +0100, Anton Khirnov wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > > as previously discussed, we need to re-elect the members of the
> > > Technical and Community Committees. As a reminder - the Technical
> > > Committee (TC) resolves technical disputes, while the Community
> > > Committee (CC) resolves personal conflicts and code of conduct
> > > violations.
> > > 
> > > Anyone can become a member of either committee - they do not need to be
> > > in GA (i.e. have voting rights). One person can also be a member of both
> > > committees at once.
> > > 
> > > The vote should start the Monday after the previous vote (extra GA
> > > members) finishes - that should be either 2023-11-20 or 2023-11-27 -
> > > giving us two or three weeks for discussion and proposing candidates.
> > > 
> > > The candidates so far are:
> > >    * TC:
> > >      - Jan Ekström
> > >      - Anton Khirnov
> > >      - Lynne
> > >      - Martin Storsjö
> > >      - Niklas Haas
> > >      - Michael Niedermayer
> > >      - Mark Thompson
> > >    * CC:
> > >      - Dave Rice (IIUC it was somebody else who suggested him, so he'd
> > >        need to be asked whether he wants the position)
> > >      - James Almer
> > >      - Jean-Baptiste Kempf
> > >      - Thilo Borgmann
> > >      - Steven Liu
> > >      - Ronald Bultje
> > >      - Anton Khirnov
> > > 
> > > (proposed at VDD as per Kyle's notes; I've also added myself as a CC
> > > candidate).
> > > 
> > > Anyone else wishing to volunteer for TC or CC, please reply to this
> > > email.
> > 
> > So many people want to join the CC and ive forwarded so many insults
> > to the CC with no reaction and no improvment. So i guess if I complain
> > that the CC isnt doing its job, i guess i must at least volunteer
> > to do the job better.
> > So here is my candidacy, vote for me, i lack sozial skills but
> > i recognize an insult when i see one and i can ban people if a friendly
> > private reminder is "misunderstood" repeatedly (IFF i have the authority to do that)
> 
> If the CC is not acting it's because we're trying to get a new one formed.

Forming a new CC doesnt prevent teh old one from doing its job
there is no relation.

thx

[...]
-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

Old school: Use the lowest level language in which you can solve the problem
            conveniently.
New school: Use the highest level language in which the latest supercomputer
            can solve the problem without the user falling asleep waiting.

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Nicolas George]

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Michael Niedermayer (12023-11-11):
> Forming a new CC doesnt prevent teh old one from doing its job
> there is no relation.

The previous CC had lost its mandate two years before.

Also, I cannot easily find the list of members (which is a problem in
itself), but I remember observing that several members were in fact very
biassed.

-- 
  Nicolas George

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Vittorio Giovara]

On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 1:52 PM Nicolas George <george@nsup.org> wrote:

> itself), but I remember observing that several members were in fact very
> biassed.
>

[citation needed]
-- 
Vittorio
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Michael Niedermayer]

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On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 07:52:24PM +0100, Nicolas George wrote:
> Michael Niedermayer (12023-11-11):
> > Forming a new CC doesnt prevent teh old one from doing its job
> > there is no relation.
> 
> The previous CC had lost its mandate two years before.

But that doesnt matter
if someone insults people, gets warned
insults again, gets warned
insults again and the CC asks the admins to ban him
the admins will ban him
Thea admins can see the history of repeated offenses, they arent blind



> 
> Also, I cannot easily find the list of members (which is a problem in

jb thilo james carl dave

thx

[...]

-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

Awnsering whenever a program halts or runs forever is
On a turing machine, in general impossible (turings halting problem).
On any real computer, always possible as a real computer has a finite number
of states N, and will either halt in less than N cycles or never halt.

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Anton Khirnov]

Hi,
this is a reminder that this vote will be started next Monday
(2023-11-27).

The candidates so far are:
   * TC:
     - Jan Ekström
     - Anton Khirnov
     - Lynne
     - Martin Storsjö
     - Niklas Haas
     - Michael Niedermayer
     - Mark Thompson
   * CC:
     - Dave Rice
     - James Almer
     - Jean-Baptiste Kempf
     - Thilo Borgmann
     - Steven Liu
     - Ronald Bultje
     - Anton Khirnov
     - Vittorio Giovara
     - Rémi Denis-Courmont
     - Michael Niedermayer

Anyone is still welcome to volunteer for either commitee by replying to
this thread, but please do so ASAP.

Cheers,
-- 
Anton Khirnov
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Anton Khirnov]

The two votes have now been started, with 51 authorized voters, as
generated by
$ ./tools/general_assembly.pl  --emails
# GA for 2020-11-06T00:00:00/2023-11-06T00:00:00; 51 people; SHA256:343cb68cff645e15169aaad85312234cefc2e76bc67d1cd93e959205dfe0b975; HEAD:66a02a85088fa8796045a305722f611df8901439

If you are on the voter list and do not receive a voting link soon,
please let me know. If you do receive a voting link, please read the
instructions carefully and vote as soon as you can.

-- 
Anton Khirnov
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Anton Khirnov]

I configured these votes to use proportional representation, which seems
to have changed the UI from plain rankings (visually higher/numerically
lower rank = candidate is more preferred) to manually assigned weights
(higher weight = candidate is more preferred).

There are reports from people on IRC that they got confused by the
change and voted the reverse of what they meant. Sadly there is no way
to change your vote after it's been case, so if there is a nontrivial
number of such people, we may want to redo the vote.

-- 
Anton Khirnov
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Ronald S. Bultje]

Hi,

On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 6:58 AM Anton Khirnov <anton@khirnov.net> wrote:

> There are reports from people on IRC that they got confused by the
> change and voted the reverse of what they meant. Sadly there is no way
> to change your vote after it's been case, so if there is a nontrivial
> number of such people, we may want to redo the vote.
>

Serious suggestion: maybe the vote invitation email (or something similar)
should explain in more detail how the voting is to be done if it is
non-trivial?

Ronald
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Paul B Mahol]

On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 1:19 PM Ronald S. Bultje <rsbultje@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 6:58 AM Anton Khirnov <anton@khirnov.net> wrote:
>
> > There are reports from people on IRC that they got confused by the
> > change and voted the reverse of what they meant. Sadly there is no way
> > to change your vote after it's been case, so if there is a nontrivial
> > number of such people, we may want to redo the vote.
> >
>
> Serious suggestion: maybe the vote invitation email (or something similar)
> should explain in more detail how the voting is to be done if it is
> non-trivial?
>

You want to be in CC/TC but do not understand basic math concepts like
weights?



>
> Ronald
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Anton Khirnov]

Quoting Ronald S. Bultje (2023-11-28 13:19:00)
> Hi,
> 
> On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 6:58 AM Anton Khirnov <anton@khirnov.net> wrote:
> 
> > There are reports from people on IRC that they got confused by the
> > change and voted the reverse of what they meant. Sadly there is no way
> > to change your vote after it's been case, so if there is a nontrivial
> > number of such people, we may want to redo the vote.
> >
> 
> Serious suggestion: maybe the vote invitation email (or something similar)
> should explain in more detail how the voting is to be done if it is
> non-trivial?

1) I did not expect that picking proportional representation would
   change the UI so dramatically. And since I did not know what it would
   look like, I could hardly describe it in detail.
2) The UI in general could be improved, to put it mildly. Even for
   "normal" votes there is the potential point of confusion that more
   preferred candidates are higher visually, but have a lower numerical
   rank. So a statements like "X ranks higher than Y" could potentially
   be interpreted either way.
3) People generally dislike parsing long detailed explanations. Making
   the text longer could cause more voters to misinterpret it, or not
   bother reading it at all.

So while I'm all for improving descriptions, it's not all that easy to
do. Patches welcome.

-- 
Anton Khirnov
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[James Almer]

On 11/28/2023 9:34 AM, Anton Khirnov wrote:
> Quoting Ronald S. Bultje (2023-11-28 13:19:00)
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 6:58 AM Anton Khirnov <anton@khirnov.net> wrote:
>>
>>> There are reports from people on IRC that they got confused by the
>>> change and voted the reverse of what they meant. Sadly there is no way
>>> to change your vote after it's been case, so if there is a nontrivial
>>> number of such people, we may want to redo the vote.
>>>
>>
>> Serious suggestion: maybe the vote invitation email (or something similar)
>> should explain in more detail how the voting is to be done if it is
>> non-trivial?
> 
> 1) I did not expect that picking proportional representation would
>     change the UI so dramatically. And since I did not know what it would
>     look like, I could hardly describe it in detail.
> 2) The UI in general could be improved, to put it mildly. Even for
>     "normal" votes there is the potential point of confusion that more
>     preferred candidates are higher visually, but have a lower numerical
>     rank. So a statements like "X ranks higher than Y" could potentially
>     be interpreted either way.
> 3) People generally dislike parsing long detailed explanations. Making
>     the text longer could cause more voters to misinterpret it, or not
>     bother reading it at all.
> 
> So while I'm all for improving descriptions, it's not all that easy to
> do. Patches welcome.

Unlike in the previous vote, this one had you write a number. That alone 
made me double check, and it indeed gives you an explanation of how 
weight value works.
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Anton Khirnov]

For the record, I've edited the vote description to make it more clear.
It now looks like this:

 Five people from the list below will become the members of the Technical
 Committee (TC). Assign weights to each person according to how much you
 want them to be in the committee (higher weight = higher preference).

 The system will assume you want to maximise the sum of weights of
 selected candidates. E.g. if X is given a weight of 10 and Y and Z have
 weights 8 and 6 respectively, then the voting algorithm will assume you
 prefer a committee with both Y and Z over one with X, because 14 > 10.
 However, giving Y and Z weight of 4 and 2 instead would have expressed
 that X is preferred to a combination of Y and Z, because 6 < 10.

-- 
Anton Khirnov
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Devin Heitmueller]

On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 8:23 AM Anton Khirnov <anton@khirnov.net> wrote:
>
> For the record, I've edited the vote description to make it more clear.
> It now looks like this:
>
>  Five people from the list below will become the members of the Technical
>  Committee (TC). Assign weights to each person according to how much you
>  want them to be in the committee (higher weight = higher preference).
>
>  The system will assume you want to maximise the sum of weights of
>  selected candidates. E.g. if X is given a weight of 10 and Y and Z have
>  weights 8 and 6 respectively, then the voting algorithm will assume you
>  prefer a committee with both Y and Z over one with X, because 14 > 10.
>  However, giving Y and Z weight of 4 and 2 instead would have expressed
>  that X is preferred to a combination of Y and Z, because 6 < 10.

Yeah, I suspect much of the confusion came from the (unintentionally)
misleading text in the original email which said, "Rank them in the
order in which you prefer them for that role.".  I almost ranked them
1-6 before reading the full voting page.

My vote (no pun intended) would be, given the vote was only put out a
few hours ago, to tell everyone the first vote is being thrown away
(without revealing the voting results), and give everyone the
opportunity to vote again now that it's been made clear how the
weighting works.

Devin

-- 
Devin Heitmueller, Senior Software Engineer
LTN Global Communications
o: +1 (301) 363-1001
w: https://ltnglobal.com  e: devin.heitmueller@ltnglobal.com
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Derek Buitenhuis]

On 11/28/2023 1:23 PM, Anton Khirnov wrote:
>  The system will assume you want to maximise the sum of weights of
>  selected candidates. E.g. if X is given a weight of 10 and Y and Z have
>  weights 8 and 6 respectively, then the voting algorithm will assume you
>  prefer a committee with both Y and Z over one with X, because 14 > 10.
>  However, giving Y and Z weight of 4 and 2 instead would have expressed
>  that X is preferred to a combination of Y and Z, because 6 < 10.

This is the opposite of clear or concise, it is word soup.

Given that some already voted the opposite of what they intende, and
this trainwreck of an explanation, I think these votes should be
nuked.

Really. I *still* have trouble understanding what to enter even after
reading this.

What drugs were the devs on when they thought "yes, having voters enter
free-form data is reasonable"?

- Derek
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Paul B Mahol]

On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 3:10 PM Derek Buitenhuis <derek.buitenhuis@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 11/28/2023 1:23 PM, Anton Khirnov wrote:
> >  The system will assume you want to maximise the sum of weights of
> >  selected candidates. E.g. if X is given a weight of 10 and Y and Z have
> >  weights 8 and 6 respectively, then the voting algorithm will assume you
> >  prefer a committee with both Y and Z over one with X, because 14 > 10.
> >  However, giving Y and Z weight of 4 and 2 instead would have expressed
> >  that X is preferred to a combination of Y and Z, because 6 < 10.
>
> This is the opposite of clear or concise, it is word soup.
>
> Given that some already voted the opposite of what they intende, and
> this trainwreck of an explanation, I think these votes should be
> nuked.
>
> Really. I *still* have trouble understanding what to enter even after
> reading this.
>
> What drugs were the devs on when they thought "yes, having voters enter
> free-form data is reasonable"?
>

Looks like average IQ dropped bellow room temperature.


>
> - Derek
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Derek Buitenhuis]

On 11/28/2023 2:25 PM, Paul B Mahol wrote:
> Looks like average IQ dropped bellow room temperature.

Direct insults are unacceptable and I have forwarded this to CC,
which can hopefully look after the vote.

- Derek
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Derek Buitenhuis]

On 11/28/2023 2:30 PM, Derek Buitenhuis wrote:
> Direct insults are unacceptable and I have forwarded this to CC,
> which can hopefully look after the vote.

(I include myself in this, the irony wasn't lost on me.)

- Derek
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Paul B Mahol]

On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 3:32 PM Derek Buitenhuis <derek.buitenhuis@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 11/28/2023 2:30 PM, Derek Buitenhuis wrote:
> > Direct insults are unacceptable and I have forwarded this to CC,
> > which can hopefully look after the vote.
>
> (I include myself in this, the irony wasn't lost on me.)
>
>
Its my personal opinion of all this situation.
If you feel insulted by my entry/opinions I'm really really sorry.


> - Derek
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Anton Khirnov]

Quoting Derek Buitenhuis (2023-11-28 15:10:10)
> On 11/28/2023 1:23 PM, Anton Khirnov wrote:
> >  The system will assume you want to maximise the sum of weights of
> >  selected candidates. E.g. if X is given a weight of 10 and Y and Z have
> >  weights 8 and 6 respectively, then the voting algorithm will assume you
> >  prefer a committee with both Y and Z over one with X, because 14 > 10.
> >  However, giving Y and Z weight of 4 and 2 instead would have expressed
> >  that X is preferred to a combination of Y and Z, because 6 < 10.
> 
> This is the opposite of clear or concise, it is word soup.

Calling things generically bad is the opposite of helpful.

-- 
Anton Khirnov
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Derek Buitenhuis]

On 11/28/2023 3:50 PM, Anton Khirnov wrote:
> Calling things generically bad is the opposite of helpful.

I cannot offer help on making a paragraph that I don't fully
understand become more comprehensible, as that would require
I understand it fully.

But, I would again like to state these votes should be scrapped
and redone. People literally voted the opposite of what they wanted
to by accident, due to this.

- Derek
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Thilo Borgmann via ffmpeg-devel]

On 28.11.23 21:30, Derek Buitenhuis wrote:
> On 11/28/2023 3:50 PM, Anton Khirnov wrote:
>> Calling things generically bad is the opposite of helpful.
> I cannot offer help on making a paragraph that I don't fully
> understand become more comprehensible, as that would require
> I understand it fully.
>
> But, I would again like to state these votes should be scrapped
> and redone. People literally voted the opposite of what they wanted
> to by accident, due to this.
>

FWIW the type in of weights is one of the two options to do a 
proportional representation for the vote.
The other is the one we had used so far, by ranking the candidates from 
1st to n-th.

Both should serve our needs for proportional representation AFAICT and I 
don't assume they'd give us different results of the vote. But maybe 
Anton had a reason to pick one over the other.

If Anton decides it's worth redoing it, we maybe just do the other 
option and be a bit more resilient to misinterpretation.

-Thilo
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Michael Niedermayer]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1789 bytes --]

On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 02:23:13PM +0100, Anton Khirnov wrote:
> For the record, I've edited the vote description to make it more clear.
> It now looks like this:
> 
>  Five people from the list below will become the members of the Technical
>  Committee (TC). Assign weights to each person according to how much you
>  want them to be in the committee (higher weight = higher preference).
> 

>  The system will assume you want to maximise the sum of weights of
>  selected candidates. E.g. if X is given a weight of 10 and Y and Z have
>  weights 8 and 6 respectively, then the voting algorithm will assume you
>  prefer a committee with both Y and Z over one with X, because 14 > 10.
>  However, giving Y and Z weight of 4 and 2 instead would have expressed
>  that X is preferred to a combination of Y and Z, because 6 < 10.

My try in cooking word soup:

The system will assume you want to maximise the sum of weights of the
selected candidates.

Some examples:
If you give Jerry a weight of 10 and give Tom a weight of 9, that means
you prefer Jerry over Tom because 10 > 9
If you give Spike a weight of 20 that would mean you not only prefer Spike
over Tom OR Jerry but also over Tom AND Jerry. Because 20 > 10 + 9

OTOH if you give Spike a weight of 18 that would mean you prefer Spike over
Tom OR Jerry but you prefer Tom AND Jerry over Spike.
Because: 9   < 10    < 18     < 9 + 10
         Tom < Jerry < Spike  < Tom and Jerry

thx

[...]
-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

When the tyrant has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty, and
there is nothing more to fear from them, then he is always stirring up
some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader. -- Plato

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel]

> On Nov 29, 2023, at 3:14 PM, Michael Niedermayer <michael@niedermayer.cc> wrote:
> 
> If you give Jerry a weight of 10 and give Tom a weight of 9, that means
> you prefer Jerry over Tom because 10 > 9
> If you give Spike a weight of 20 that would mean you not only prefer Spike
> over Tom OR Jerry but also over Tom AND Jerry. Because 20 > 10 + 9
> 
> OTOH if you give Spike a weight of 18 that would mean you prefer Spike over
> Tom OR Jerry but you prefer Tom AND Jerry over Spike.
> Because: 9   < 10    < 18     < 9 + 10
>         Tom < Jerry < Spike  < Tom and Jerry

Is this last example the kind of preference that people are likely to want to express in practice? It seems much harder to reason about and much more likely to lead to mistakes. 

Given a list of say 7 candidates running for 5 positions that's 21 possible combinations and in theory weights would have to be assigned such that the sum for each one of those 21 combinations is correctly ranked by order of preference.

I think the simplicity of the simpler ranked choice voting might outweigh the benefit of expressing complex preferences with the sum of weights.

- Cosmin
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Ronald S. Bultje]

Hi,

On Wed, Nov 29, 2023 at 7:01 PM Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel <
ffmpeg-devel@ffmpeg.org> wrote:

> > On Nov 29, 2023, at 3:14 PM, Michael Niedermayer <michael@niedermayer.cc>
> wrote:
> >
> > If you give Jerry a weight of 10 and give Tom a weight of 9, that means
> > you prefer Jerry over Tom because 10 > 9
> > If you give Spike a weight of 20 that would mean you not only prefer
> Spike
> > over Tom OR Jerry but also over Tom AND Jerry. Because 20 > 10 + 9
> >
> > OTOH if you give Spike a weight of 18 that would mean you prefer Spike
> over
> > Tom OR Jerry but you prefer Tom AND Jerry over Spike.
> > Because: 9   < 10    < 18     < 9 + 10
> >         Tom < Jerry < Spike  < Tom and Jerry
>
> Is this last example the kind of preference that people are likely to want
> to express in practice? It seems much harder to reason about and much more
> likely to lead to mistakes.
>
> Given a list of say 7 candidates running for 5 positions that's 21
> possible combinations and in theory weights would have to be assigned such
> that the sum for each one of those 21 combinations is correctly ranked by
> order of preference.
>
> I think the simplicity of the simpler ranked choice voting might outweigh
> the benefit of expressing complex preferences with the sum of weights.
>

Does ranked voting allow expressing equal weight to multiple candidates?
For example, I prefer Jerry and Tom equally, but I prefer either one over
Spike.

Ronald
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel]

> On Nov 29, 2023, at 5:42 PM, Ronald S. Bultje <rsbultje@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Does ranked voting allow expressing equal weight to multiple candidates?
> For example, I prefer Jerry and Tom equally, but I prefer either one over
> Spike.

In theory that could depend on the implementation of ranked voting, it could require strict ordering or allow expressing equal rank. I did a quick test vote on the public CIVS instance using "proportional representation" and "rank of their favorite choice" mode and it appears to allow assigning equal rank to multiple candidates.

- Cosmin


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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Anton Khirnov]

Quoting Derek Buitenhuis (2023-11-28 21:30:12)
> On 11/28/2023 3:50 PM, Anton Khirnov wrote:
> > Calling things generically bad is the opposite of helpful.
> 
> I cannot offer help on making a paragraph that I don't fully
> understand become more comprehensible, as that would require
> I understand it fully.

Consider the following:
1) I am neither a UI nor a voting system expert.
2) Explaining complex topics (like sophisticated voting systems) in a
   clear and easy to understand way is a very rare and highly nontrivial
   skill.
3) If you want an explanation that can be understood with no effort from
   your side, the best I can give you is: higher number = more
   preference (which is in the text already).
4) As this is a collaborative project, you are very much welcome to
   read the official documentation and supply a better explanation
   yourself, or find someone else who does.
5) As you're doing neither of these, your "word soup" and "trainwreck"
   amount just to your being an asshole to no purpose.

> But, I would again like to state these votes should be scrapped
> and redone. People literally voted the opposite of what they wanted
> to by accident, due to this.

So far we have exactly one person to whom this happened, who has notably
NOT asked to redo the vote yet. While I don't oppose redoing the vote in
principle, I also don't think it's realistic to expect a vote with 50+
voters to run with zero issues. Voting fatigue is also a real thing, so
we risk some people not voting at all in hypothetical repeat votes.

-- 
Anton Khirnov
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Anton Khirnov]

Quoting Thilo Borgmann via ffmpeg-devel (2023-11-29 13:22:11)
> 
> 
> On 28.11.23 21:30, Derek Buitenhuis wrote:
> > On 11/28/2023 3:50 PM, Anton Khirnov wrote:
> >> Calling things generically bad is the opposite of helpful.
> > I cannot offer help on making a paragraph that I don't fully
> > understand become more comprehensible, as that would require
> > I understand it fully.
> >
> > But, I would again like to state these votes should be scrapped
> > and redone. People literally voted the opposite of what they wanted
> > to by accident, due to this.
> >
> 
> FWIW the type in of weights is one of the two options to do a 
> proportional representation for the vote.
> The other is the one we had used so far, by ranking the candidates from 
> 1st to n-th.
> 
> Both should serve our needs for proportional representation AFAICT and I 
> don't assume they'd give us different results of the vote. But maybe 
> Anton had a reason to pick one over the other.

As per the official documentation https://civs1.civs.us/proportional.html

  Combined weights. In combined-weights mode, the voter gives a
  nonnegative weight to each candidate instead of ranking the
  candidates. The voter's goal is to maximize the sum of weights of
  selected candidates. This is an appropriate criterion for elections
  where the quality of all the candidates is is important to the voters,
  such as the election of an actual committee that will be voting on
  some issues. [...]

  Best candidate. In best-candidate mode, the voter's goal is to get a
  single very good candidate elected, and the quality of other elected
  candidates is a strictly secondary consideration. This is appropriate
  for an election where the voter really only cares about the best
  candidate[...]

-- 
Anton Khirnov
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Alexander Strasser]

On 2023-11-30 00:14 +0100, Michael Niedermayer wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 02:23:13PM +0100, Anton Khirnov wrote:
> > For the record, I've edited the vote description to make it more clear.
> > It now looks like this:
> >
> >  Five people from the list below will become the members of the Technical
> >  Committee (TC). Assign weights to each person according to how much you
> >  want them to be in the committee (higher weight = higher preference).
> >
>
> >  The system will assume you want to maximise the sum of weights of
> >  selected candidates. E.g. if X is given a weight of 10 and Y and Z have
> >  weights 8 and 6 respectively, then the voting algorithm will assume you
> >  prefer a committee with both Y and Z over one with X, because 14 > 10.
> >  However, giving Y and Z weight of 4 and 2 instead would have expressed
> >  that X is preferred to a combination of Y and Z, because 6 < 10.
>
> My try in cooking word soup:
>
> The system will assume you want to maximise the sum of weights of the
> selected candidates.
>
> Some examples:
> If you give Jerry a weight of 10 and give Tom a weight of 9, that means
> you prefer Jerry over Tom because 10 > 9
> If you give Spike a weight of 20 that would mean you not only prefer Spike
> over Tom OR Jerry but also over Tom AND Jerry. Because 20 > 10 + 9
>
> OTOH if you give Spike a weight of 18 that would mean you prefer Spike over
> Tom OR Jerry but you prefer Tom AND Jerry over Spike.
> Because: 9   < 10    < 18     < 9 + 10
>          Tom < Jerry < Spike  < Tom and Jerry

This is similar to the improved notice from Anton, but IMHO makes it
a bit more tangible by using person names and by also explaining it
in a longer way with AND, OR, and more spacing.

Not sure how easy it is to add to the voting and get a proper
layout/formatting like in this mail with fixed width though.

Also not sure if combined-weights mode and the way it makes
voting itself harder (at least the first time one is confronted
with it) is worth to keep for the next vote.

I personally have no strong opinion. This is not complaint.


  Alexander
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Michael Niedermayer]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2975 bytes --]

On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 12:01:25AM +0000, Cosmin Stejerean via ffmpeg-devel wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Nov 29, 2023, at 3:14 PM, Michael Niedermayer <michael@niedermayer.cc> wrote:
> > 
> > If you give Jerry a weight of 10 and give Tom a weight of 9, that means
> > you prefer Jerry over Tom because 10 > 9
> > If you give Spike a weight of 20 that would mean you not only prefer Spike
> > over Tom OR Jerry but also over Tom AND Jerry. Because 20 > 10 + 9
> > 
> > OTOH if you give Spike a weight of 18 that would mean you prefer Spike over
> > Tom OR Jerry but you prefer Tom AND Jerry over Spike.
> > Because: 9   < 10    < 18     < 9 + 10
> >         Tom < Jerry < Spike  < Tom and Jerry
> 
> Is this last example the kind of preference that people are likely to want to express in practice? It seems much harder to reason about and much more likely to lead to mistakes. 
> 
> Given a list of say 7 candidates running for 5 positions that's 21 possible combinations and in theory weights would have to be assigned such that the sum for each one of those 21 combinations is correctly ranked by order of preference.
> 
> I think the simplicity of the simpler ranked choice voting might outweigh the benefit of expressing complex preferences with the sum of weights.

There are two things here

assigning purely order vs assigning weights by the voter

and one winner vs multi winners which represent the electorate proportionally

You cannot simply use a one winner system and pull more winners
out of it. That doesnt result in a group that proportionally
represents teh electorate

To see this, consider a simple 2 party world (which seems oddly common)
one party we call the blue and one the yellow party
Candidates now could be blue, yellow or maybe gray for the middle ground

now if you have 51% blue voters your commitee will have 5 blue candidates
most likely because 51% of voters prefer the blue over gray and yellow
OTOH with 51% yellow voters your commitee will have 5 yellow candidates

You get the same effect with simpler vote systems

ask a room if they want a blue or yellow candidate.
They say "blue" and so the most popular blue candidate is added.
Now you ask the room again, what will they say ? obviously the same
as its the same people still and so whoever has 51% controlls 100% of
the seats in the commitee

Proportional voting systems avoid this by trying to select a committee
that is representative for more than just the majority


If the weights are too complex, just use something simpler
just make a scale from 0 to 5, from hate to love
give every candidate you love a 5 and everyone you hate a 0
and if you want use the numbers between for intermediates

thx

[...]
-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny 
individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities. - Ayn Rand

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Anton Khirnov]

So, given that we've had no further reports about voting mistakes, I'm
leaning towards NOT redoing the vote. If anyone has strong opinions one
way or another, feel welcome to comment. Either way we should make a
decision before the vote is closed on Tuesday.

-- 
Anton Khirnov
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Niklas Haas]

On Sat, 02 Dec 2023 11:24:39 +0100 Anton Khirnov <anton@khirnov.net> wrote:
> So, given that we've had no further reports about voting mistakes, I'm
> leaning towards NOT redoing the vote. If anyone has strong opinions one
> way or another, feel welcome to comment. Either way we should make a
> decision before the vote is closed on Tuesday.

One wrong vote out of 51 eligible is an error rate substantially below
the average for any kind of vote, ever. I would assume this has a lower
impact on the overall results than other sources of noise (mood,
weather, recent events, ...), and certainly less error than trying to
re-do the vote would introduce.

Also, if we now start to question a vote's validity over such minor
inconsistensies, after all the recent vote drama, we will begin to set
a rather nasty precedent for how future votes should be treated.

Finally, remember that human beings make mistakes and can misread even
the most basic of instructions. That somebody voted incorrectly is
neither fault of the explanation nor of the person voting, and IMO
bikeshedding how many ways to rephrase "higher number = more good" is
not a productive use of anybody's time.
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Anton Khirnov]

As nobody seems to be arguing otherwise, we'll proceed with the votes
normally.

I intend to close them on Tuesday morning - please vote ASAP if you have
not done so yet.

Cheers,
-- 
Anton Khirnov
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Anton Khirnov]

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Hi all,
Both elections have now concluded.

We have 36 votes for the CC election (70% turnout) and 38 votes for TC
(75% turnout); raw votes in CSV format are attached.

The CC members now are:
* James Almer
* Jean-Baptiste Kempf
* Anton Khirnov
* Ronald Bultje
* Michael Niedermayer

For TC, it seems that we have a tie. The system reports two winning
sets, both of which contain:
* Michael Niedermayer
* Martin Storsjö
* Mark Thompson
* Anton Khirnov

The final member is Jan Ekström in one set and Niklas Haas in the other.
We should now consider how to break this tie. Some options suggested on
IRC were:
* run a new vote with just the two of them
* randomly
* have Rémi break the tie, as he said he accidentally voted incorrectly
  due to misinterpreting the documentation
* expand the committee

Cheers,
-- 
Anton Khirnov

[-- Attachment #2: cc.csv --]
[-- Type: text/csv, Size: 1101 bytes --]

Dave Rice,James Almer,Jean-Baptiste Kempf,Thilo Borgmann,Steven Liu,Ronald Bultje,Anton Khirnov,Vittorio Giovara,Rémi Denis-Courmont,Michael Niedermayer
0,0,999,200,999,0,0,0,0,999
0,10,10,0,10,0,10,0,0,10
800,999,999,0,800,999,999,999,999,250
0,999,666,666,999,999,999,0,0,999
0,100,150,0,0,100,100,100,100,0
4,5,0,5,3,5,1,3,1,2
0,6,5,0,2,4,3,3,1,0
0,80,0,80,50,20,90,70,0,100
0,0,0,0,998,0,0,0,0,999
1,0,0,0,0,0,0,1,0,0
200,100,0,600,400,500,0,0,0,300
2,10,8,0,6,9,10,7,8,1
2,3,0,0,2,3,3,3,1,1
0,0,95,0,0,0,0,0,0,100
0,0,999,0,999,999,999,0,0,999
999,0,999,500,0,999,999,999,900,0
50,50,50,20,20,50,50,20,20,20
8,8,9,0,3,7,9,9,5,0
0,9,9,0,9,0,9,0,9,9
8,7,4,10,7,7,6,6,4,10
10,10,10,10,0,0,0,0,0,10
100,90,60,40,100,80,75,30,0,80
100,100,150,90,100,130,130,200,0,70
10,20,20,0,0,20,20,20,10,0
10,10,0,15,10,10,0,1,0,0
0,4,0,6,2,3,5,0,0,1
200,500,500,201,200,50,200,0,100,999
10,7,8,0,5,0,0,0,0,9
0,100,100,0,0,50,50,0,50,0
7,9,10,8,10,10,10,10,0,0
55,999,999,0,111,999,999,88,999,55
0,1,1,1,0,0,1,0,1,1
5,10,0,10,10,0,0,0,0,10
0,10,10,5,10,10,10,0,8,5
4,8,10,0,2,6,10,8,8,2
0,10,10,0,10,8,10,4,10,8

[-- Attachment #3: tc.csv --]
[-- Type: text/csv, Size: 804 bytes --]

Jan Ekström,Anton Khirnov,Lynne,Martin Storsjö,Niklas Haas,Michael Niedermayer,Mark Thompson
0,0,0,10,10,10,10
5,2,4,0,6,1,3
999,999,0,888,0,999,888
100,50,50,0,50,0,100
999,999,999,999,0,999,0
4,10,5,9,7,3,9
6,3,2,5,4,1,7
6,4,4,6,6,10,6
70,100,0,100,100,50,70
999,999,700,999,800,700,999
80,95,90,50,90,100,25
7,3,9,10,9,10,6
1,2,2,5,3,3,4
999,999,0,999,999,0,0
1,0,1,0,0,0,0
100,100,10,6,10,25,50
6,5,6,7,5,10,5
5,0,5,5,5,10,5
10,30,0,10,10,30,10
2,10,10,10,4,8,10
80,0,0,90,70,100,10
8,10,0,7,0,10,9
6,9,3,9,9,2,8
1,4,1,4,1,0,4
999,999,225,999,999,450,999
10,10,10,10,10,10,10
0,7,0,0,7,9,8
6,2,7,5,1,3,4
0,999,999,999,0,999,999
9,10,9,10,10,8,8
10,30,100,20,10,200,30
1,3,0,3,2,3,3
2,1,7,3,4,6,5
0,998,0,0,0,999,0
100,100,0,100,100,0,100
30,50,30,50,30,10,50
6,7,17,8,1,9,9
300,0,0,200,100,500,400

[-- Attachment #4: Type: text/plain, Size: 251 bytes --]

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Steven Liu]

Anton Khirnov <anton@khirnov.net> 于2023年12月5日周二 18:07写道：
>
> Hi all,
> Both elections have now concluded.
>
> We have 36 votes for the CC election (70% turnout) and 38 votes for TC
> (75% turnout); raw votes in CSV format are attached.
>
> The CC members now are:
> * James Almer
> * Jean-Baptiste Kempf
> * Anton Khirnov
> * Ronald Bultje
> * Michael Niedermayer
>
> For TC, it seems that we have a tie. The system reports two winning
> sets, both of which contain:
> * Michael Niedermayer
> * Martin Storsjö
> * Mark Thompson
> * Anton Khirnov
>
> The final member is Jan Ekström in one set and Niklas Haas in the other.
> We should now consider how to break this tie. Some options suggested on
> IRC were:

> * expand the committee
+1 at this time


Thanks
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Niklas Haas]

On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 11:07:33 +0100 Anton Khirnov <anton@khirnov.net> wrote:
> Hi all,
> Both elections have now concluded.
> 
> We have 36 votes for the CC election (70% turnout) and 38 votes for TC
> (75% turnout); raw votes in CSV format are attached.
> 
> The CC members now are:
> * James Almer
> * Jean-Baptiste Kempf
> * Anton Khirnov
> * Ronald Bultje
> * Michael Niedermayer
> 
> For TC, it seems that we have a tie. The system reports two winning
> sets, both of which contain:
> * Michael Niedermayer
> * Martin Storsjö
> * Mark Thompson
> * Anton Khirnov
> 
> The final member is Jan Ekström in one set and Niklas Haas in the other.
> We should now consider how to break this tie. Some options suggested on
> IRC were:
> * run a new vote with just the two of them
> * randomly
> * have Rémi break the tie, as he said he accidentally voted incorrectly
>   due to misinterpreting the documentation
> * expand the committee

Rather than run a new vote, I would prefer to give the spot to Jan.

Of course, I am also fine with an expanded committe.
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[James Almer]

On 12/5/2023 7:07 AM, Anton Khirnov wrote:
> Hi all,
> Both elections have now concluded.
> 
> We have 36 votes for the CC election (70% turnout) and 38 votes for TC
> (75% turnout); raw votes in CSV format are attached.
> 
> The CC members now are:
> * James Almer
> * Jean-Baptiste Kempf
> * Anton Khirnov
> * Ronald Bultje
> * Michael Niedermayer
> 
> For TC, it seems that we have a tie. The system reports two winning
> sets, both of which contain:
> * Michael Niedermayer
> * Martin Storsjö
> * Mark Thompson
> * Anton Khirnov
> 
> The final member is Jan Ekström in one set and Niklas Haas in the other.
> We should now consider how to break this tie. Some options suggested on
> IRC were:
> * run a new vote with just the two of them
> * randomly
> * have Rémi break the tie, as he said he accidentally voted incorrectly
>    due to misinterpreting the documentation

This doesn't feel nice, having one person decide like this.

> * expand the committee

Six members mean a vote could end up in a tie.

IMO, either we do a new vote with the two of them as options, or one of 
them steps down.
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Rémi Denis-Courmont]

Le 5 décembre 2023 15:28:54 GMT+02:00, James Almer <jamrial@gmail.com> a écrit :
>On 12/5/2023 7:07 AM, Anton Khirnov wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> Both elections have now concluded.
>> 
>> We have 36 votes for the CC election (70% turnout) and 38 votes for TC
>> (75% turnout); raw votes in CSV format are attached.
>> 
>> The CC members now are:
>> * James Almer
>> * Jean-Baptiste Kempf
>> * Anton Khirnov
>> * Ronald Bultje
>> * Michael Niedermayer
>> 
>> For TC, it seems that we have a tie. The system reports two winning
>> sets, both of which contain:
>> * Michael Niedermayer
>> * Martin Storsjö
>> * Mark Thompson
>> * Anton Khirnov
>> 
>> The final member is Jan Ekström in one set and Niklas Haas in the other.
>> We should now consider how to break this tie. Some options suggested on
>> IRC were:
>> * run a new vote with just the two of them
>> * randomly
>> * have Rémi break the tie, as he said he accidentally voted incorrectly
>>    due to misinterpreting the documentation
>
>This doesn't feel nice, having one person decide like this.

I don't want to do that anyway as that feels like a very uncomfortable position to be in. Nobody can force me. So that option is off the table.

>> * expand the committee
>
>Six members mean a vote could end up in a tie.
>
>IMO, either we do a new vote with the two of them as options, or one of them steps down.
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Anton Khirnov]

Quoting Niklas Haas (2023-12-05 12:01:48)
> On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 11:07:33 +0100 Anton Khirnov <anton@khirnov.net> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> > Both elections have now concluded.
> > 
> > We have 36 votes for the CC election (70% turnout) and 38 votes for TC
> > (75% turnout); raw votes in CSV format are attached.
> > 
> > The CC members now are:
> > * James Almer
> > * Jean-Baptiste Kempf
> > * Anton Khirnov
> > * Ronald Bultje
> > * Michael Niedermayer
> > 
> > For TC, it seems that we have a tie. The system reports two winning
> > sets, both of which contain:
> > * Michael Niedermayer
> > * Martin Storsjö
> > * Mark Thompson
> > * Anton Khirnov
> > 
> > The final member is Jan Ekström in one set and Niklas Haas in the other.
> > We should now consider how to break this tie. Some options suggested on
> > IRC were:
> > * run a new vote with just the two of them
> > * randomly
> > * have Rémi break the tie, as he said he accidentally voted incorrectly
> >   due to misinterpreting the documentation
> > * expand the committee
> 
> Rather than run a new vote, I would prefer to give the spot to Jan.

All the other alternatives have major issues, so I'd go with this as the
least bad option.

Anyone against?

-- 
Anton Khirnov
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] [ANNOUNCE] upcoming vote: TC/CC elections

[Michael Niedermayer]

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On Wed, Dec 06, 2023 at 09:25:43AM +0100, Anton Khirnov wrote:
> Quoting Niklas Haas (2023-12-05 12:01:48)
> > On Tue, 05 Dec 2023 11:07:33 +0100 Anton Khirnov <anton@khirnov.net> wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > > Both elections have now concluded.
> > > 
> > > We have 36 votes for the CC election (70% turnout) and 38 votes for TC
> > > (75% turnout); raw votes in CSV format are attached.
> > > 
> > > The CC members now are:
> > > * James Almer
> > > * Jean-Baptiste Kempf
> > > * Anton Khirnov
> > > * Ronald Bultje
> > > * Michael Niedermayer
> > > 
> > > For TC, it seems that we have a tie. The system reports two winning
> > > sets, both of which contain:
> > > * Michael Niedermayer
> > > * Martin Storsjö
> > > * Mark Thompson
> > > * Anton Khirnov
> > > 
> > > The final member is Jan Ekström in one set and Niklas Haas in the other.
> > > We should now consider how to break this tie. Some options suggested on
> > > IRC were:
> > > * run a new vote with just the two of them
> > > * randomly
> > > * have Rémi break the tie, as he said he accidentally voted incorrectly
> > >   due to misinterpreting the documentation
> > > * expand the committee
> > 
> > Rather than run a new vote, I would prefer to give the spot to Jan.
> 
> All the other alternatives have major issues, so I'd go with this as the
> least bad option.

It would be possible to add both Jan and Niklas to the alias but have only Jan
vote. And if we end with a Tie on a vote have Niklas break the Tie

thx

[...]
-- 
Michael     GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
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